forums.marpirc.net

Hi Everyone,
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I've been following this site for several months now (it's one of my favorites!) but I've noticed some problems with the leaderboard. I've thought about this for while and come up with an alternate ranking system to address some of the current deficiencies. Without getting into too much detail right now, the things that are happening that I don't like (and most of you would probably agree) are as follows:

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- there is no solid score verification process currently in place
- there are bad and bogus INPs floating around
- there are some 1st place recordings that have bogus hi-scores
- there are too many clones available which allow point leeching
- there are clones where people have submitted the same recording!!
- some players are after leaderboard points rather than actual game points
- the leaderboard doesn't quite answer: how does a player rate when compared to others?
- hi scores outside the top 3 don't count for beans

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So, in the interest in fairness, I've come up with a Power Rating System

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- only verified and authenticated scores count regardless of ranking
- no scores from any clone games are allowed (only originals count)
- actual game scores with ratios are used. 1st place score=100%
- ranking and scoring high relative to the top score is rewarded
- total score domination within a particular game is also rewarded
- players are rewarded for playing well within the games they submit
- the Power Rating scale is from 0 to 10 where the average player is set to a 1

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Here are the top twenty players as of 3/5/99:
Rank Player--Power Rating
1 BBH 9.19
2 JSW 9.04
3 JoustGod 8.68
4 Angry 8.34
5 German Krol 7.27
6 Zwaxy 5.73
7 BeeJay 5.46
8 Steve Krogman 5.27
9 Krool 5.06
10 TAB 4.83
11 Dith 4.08
12 Oldie 3.33
13 Crash 3.32
14 SportsDude 2.72
15 Neil Chapman 2.68
16 Frode Gjerde 2.34
17 Donut 2.33
18 Renzo Vignola 1.93
19 JGustavo 1.93
20 Barry Rodewald 1.88

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Total Players: 124
Average Player: 1.00
Possible Games: 1178
Original Games: 631

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It's interesting the note the differences. If anything this would force players to submit better recordings. Let me know what you guys think!!

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Pat

--
laffaye@ibm.net

I understand where is coming from. About a week ago I was
thinking about how unbalanced the point system is when comparing
scores amongst the players. My philosophy for a scoring system that
will give a player a percentage based on there score compared to the
highest score recorded for that game (also varified by Twin Galaxies
associates). Below is an example of 5 scores with the players
percentage rating based on the score they got. Pat has the same idea
I have with giving the highest score a 100% rating and then all the
other scores get rated accordingly. This was a rating system Twin
Galaxies has been using for almost 20 years now. It has been proved
time and time again to be successful and accurated when trying to
rate scores amongst players on a certain game. I also agree that
there is alot of clones floating around which can benefit a player in
lots of ways. I mean, if your the best on donkey kong, I think
everyone on marp knows that and have no problem with awarding the
player his 10 pts, but to play 4 clones and get another 40 pts just
sounds unfair to me. The player diserves the 10 pts, but it can get
carried away. Anyway, let me explain what I'm talking about with the
scoring rating system for the one's that haven't seen it before.
Then I'll wait for some responses to it (I'm sure the 1st one will be
Zwaxy!

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Note: The game, score and players are an example.

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*** Pang ***

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1)Steve Krogman: 2,958,350 100%
2)BBH : 2,495,080 84.34%
3)Angry : 2,104,890 71.15%
4)Krool : 1,790,450 60.52%
5)Zwaxy : 700,000 23.66%

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Please let me know if you understand the rating system. Otherwise I
can break it down and explain how I came up with the percentages.

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Regards,
Steve Krogman

--
skrogman@concentric.net

I think these are all good ideas, particularly the % scoring system -
that makes a lot of sense. I also like the idea of ignoring clone
games, something we considered a long time ago. I know some clones
are slightly different in gameplay but essentially if you are good at
one you have an advantage if there are many clones. Ban the clones.
As for confirming scores, if there are no clones, there will be less
INPs and more competition which will both lead to more time and
reason to watch and confirm other peoples INPs.

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Dith

--
dith@europress.co.uk

Oh yes, please get rid of the clones. I mean, I may never have the
skills at the "standards" (ie Galaga, Pac Man) to go for #1 on the
leader board, but I'm not looking forward to 3 versions of 10 Yard
Fight or 5+ chip revisions of each Street Fighter/Mortal Kombat game.

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The only problem I see going to a percentage scoring system is that 3
scores per game won't be adequate. 10 scores would make sense, but
that could eat more server space than Zwaxy has. Maybe after a certain
amount of minimum display time the recordings for weaker scores some
could be moved offline. For instance, with the 1,000,000 point barrier
shattered for Galaga (by however much Steve Krogman felt like), I
don't think there will be much demand for recordings below 500,000.

--
aquatarkus@digicron.com

I certainly like some of the ideas proposed regarding the Power
Rating System. However, the issue of using only verified and
authenticated scores may cause a problem in the area of scores
recorded with some of the earlier versions of MAME that have not yet
been confirmed.

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This is due to the massive changes that have been made to MAME's ROM
management system (i.e., merging, renaming). MAME has corrected many
problems with bad ROM dumps, but this leaves most of us with ROM
collections that can't play some games on MAME versions prior to MAME
v34.

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I agree that we should dump clone games. It just creates too many
leeching opportunities given (see my Pengo & Amidar scores) =) But
there are some instances when clones are completely different games,
a good example of this is the Trog Prototype game. And would dumping
clone games also include dumping multi-game variations, like the 4-in-
one bowling games?

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In response to Aquatarkus, MARP actually stores every players' top
score that has been submitted into the database, and is not limited
to just the Top 3 scores. The leaderboard simply uses the top 3
scores to calculate the point values (a long, long time ago, it just
tallied up the number of 1st place scores each player had achieved).

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=Angry=

--
angry@thq.com

A quick note. Dith made a good point about all those extra inps to
varify from cloned games. I think at least 20% of the games
available to mame are clones. This can contibute to a couple of
hundred extra inps that sooner or later will need to be varified by
myself, or anyone of the other Twin Galaxies judges. It's also
possible that all clones will not make the book for the simple fact
that only the original versions will be used. This may be an issue
that can only be determined by Chris as far as weather or not the
scores should be either removed, or moved to another list or page,
not to be confused with the original versions. If it creates to much
of a problem, then they can be left alone and just these games won't
be varified for the book.

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Sheesh! so much for a quick note.... ^ _ ^

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Steve Krogman

--
skrogman@concentric.net

I should just turn off the news. I'd feel better and would have
had proper faith in the coolness of the database

--
aquatarkus@digicron.com

Hmm. For the most part, I think Angry's said it best on this issue...
making only confirmed scores eligible for this Power Ranking system
isn't really fair to everyone, especially those who play obscure games
that alomst no one else plays and of course, the ROM changes
that often occur between versions. While there are bound to be some
bogus scores uploaded (although I can't think of anyone who does this
intentionally), make sure the version is correct, try turning sound
off/on, etc. If it still doesn't work, let Zwaxy know about it.

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It seems unanimous that clones should go, and I agree. Without clones
you get more competition over the games that ARE there, and I think
that's good. But! Wait! As Angry said, some "clones" are actually
pretty unique, like the infamous Trog prototype. And what happens if
you were to kill off the clones of, let's say, Choplifter? The
original Choplifter romset does not currently work, but there are two
bootleg versions. The two versions are slightly different in terms of
enemy placement, and one set awards 20,000 for a Perfect bonus on a
level and the other awards 50,000. Which one do we use?

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Oh yeah, regarding games where an identical recording is used for its
clones... didn't "the mob" already rule against this?

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-BBH

--
lordbbh@aol.com

) Great, everyone seems up for making MARP more challenging by
disallowing clone games. However, it's not going to be a simple
change is it?

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We need to build a list of all games which are going to be allowed.
This will initially be generated by just removing all the games
listed as clones, easy! But MAME is not very reliable with it's
definition of what is a clones, there will be exceptions and some
games only have a clone version of a game working. Also, the list
will have to be updated with every beta release.

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Still wanna go ahead with it? I'm still interested so to get things
started I suggest we work on three lists. Replacement clones, legal
clones and banned originals. I've started the lists below but it's
far from definitive. If you disagree with anything or have any
suggestions or additions then please post them here. Once we get a
near complete list, I'll create a web page with all the suggested
changes and an MWR file of the proposed list. I've based the list on
MAME 0.35 beta 5 (released today).

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List 1: Replacement clones
This is where a clone game is used in place of the original, usually
because the original doesn't work. These are the games I suggest we
replace with the bootleg version.

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chplft - chplftbl
ddragon - ddragonb
firetrap - firetpbl
ninjakd2 - ninjak2a (no sound in original)
popeye - popeyebl
rainbow - jumping
renegade - kuniokub
slapfigh - slapbtuk
superqix - sqixbl
tigerh - tigerhb1
tokio - tokiob

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List 2: Legal clones
There are many clone games with differences in gameplay. A few
examples that come to mind are:

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Circus Charlie (set 2) - no level selector
Trog (Prototype) - completely different gameplay
Arkanoid 2 (US) - different screen layouts
Donkey Kong (Jap) - different level order & "top of ladder" trick
Donkey Kong Jr. (Jap) - different level order
Crazy Kong (Alca) - mhorter beams on first level
Galaxian Turbo - faster, harder gameplay
FHMC Q*Bert - faster, harder gameplay
Super Zaxxon - faster
Mr.Do (Yukidaruma) - Older version with less features
Space Demon - Rapid firing, different attack waves and different
shield
Star Jacker (Stern) - Only a dip switch setting , but changes
gameplay.
600 - Different gameplay and enemies speed up
Puck-man - Different maze layout
Piranha - This is not a Pac-man clone really is it?
Miss Pac-man Plus - Different mazes
Hangly-man - Different mazes, invisible mazes

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Many of these differences are not significant enough to warrant it
legal. If you are champ at the original then it is highly likely that
you will also be a master at the clone too. The games I would
consider different game on the same hardare and vote as legal clones
are:

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trogp
puckman
piranha
hangly
mspacatk

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List 3: Banned originals
This list will include games which are essentially clones but listed
as originals. It will also list games which don't work and games
which have no scoring system. We can probably generate most of this
list from the games on MARP which have no score but I'd also like to
add:

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hyperoly - Hyper Olympic is the European version of Track & Field
csprint - Championship Sprint is a two player version of Super Sprint

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Finally, a couple of questions to vote on.

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Do we allow speed up cheat versions for the pac-man games to be
included in leaderboard scores? I vote NO.

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Do we still split some games (such as Bowl-O-Rama, 3 Wonders and
Invinco/Deep Scan) into several sub-games? I vote YES (there's no
other way to do it).

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Have I missed anything?

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Looking forward to your comments,
Dith

--
dith@europress.co.uk

Well....banning clones seems really a good idea to me, and the
detailed (even if preliminar) analysis Dith made is a good starting
point....

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I simply suggest to update the list of allowed games avery *final*
version, not to get crazy with the dozens of betas....and maybe (why
not), sooner or later, accept only .inps recorded with final versions
only.

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BTW...how is the points leeching banned games list ?!

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Tony

--
cicca@writeme.com

There seem to be three distinct classes: sequels, revisions, and
modifications. Sequels are new games, even if they aren't always any
good. Revisions are minor, and basically have no play difference from
the original. Modifications are major changes that make a real
difference to the gameplay.

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Sequels, like Street Fighter 2: Champion Edition or Super Zaxxon, have
different gameplay and graphics that make them a new game. Some of the
pirate or prototype boards, like Piranha or Trog, aren't really the
same game and need sequel status.

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I get the most annoyed with the minor revisions that don't affect
gameplay counting as seperate games. Examples of this I can confirm
are Mat Mania/Exciting Hour, 10 Yard Fight, and Discs Of Tron.

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The most blatent revisions are like Mat Mania/Exciting Hour where
you can play back a recording made with Mat Mania on Exciting Hour and
vice versa. I think in cases where recordings are compatible, we
should pick an "official" version and treat any recordings that play
back on that version as acceptable. I'm not sure how common it is
because I haven't tried it much.

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Modifications are probably going to be the most fought over, because
some of what the game designers considered fixing us players
considered breaking. The best example of this is Asteroids, where the
saucer hunting was made much harder. I could never really do the trick
well, but to me Asteroids just isn't the same without it.

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I wouldn't count the versions of Donkey Kong with different level
orders as an important enough difference to overall scoring, but
I'd expect the ladder bug would cause a big difference in scores.

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So much for easy

--
aquatarkus@digicron.com

2 notes that Dith made I'd like to give my input on. Any clone that
has any difference in gameplay, in my mind, is considered another
ver. of that game. These 2 ver. of Ms Pac Man (original, and turbo)
are unique and different. Therefore I vote to have scores for each
one of them. Now, compare these 2 games, (galaga midway and galaga
namco, or galaga (m or n) and galaga bootleg) There is absolutely no
difference in gameplay between these games. With Ms Pacman turbo,
it's different. May be easier to some players, but it's still
different. I watched Billy Mitchell 2 weeks ago at an arcade we went
to, and he tried to perform the "grouping method" he uses on the
original and he said "man this IS different, and pretty hard to pull
off". Basically, you make your own pattern and most of the time your
trying to stay alive for 132 screens. Besides, if it was THAT
easier, how come now one can get to the kill screen on marp? (I
should speak for myself) I will work on a 1st kill screen on
marp, but with better controls, I have done it many times in the
arcade. Gallag is another clone that can be removed, it is
identical with exceptions to 2 things: 1) Instead of Galaga, it's
spelled Gallag and 2) It only shows 5 men max on the bottom of the
screen instead of 8. Gameplay is 100%

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Just my $.02

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Regards,
Steve Krogman

--
skrogman@concentric.net

Here's another slant on this thread.
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Rather than "banning" the clones why not just have them linked.

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ie: Record the score for whatever version of Galaga you want, and
have the upload score it as a galaga Power Ranking recording
regardless of whether or not it was gallag, galaga, galaganm,
galagamw etc (or whatever they're called these days). Likewise for
all other clones that are considered so similar to their parent game
as to be insignificantly different in gameplay.

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That way we keep the existing high scores for games that are "clones"
without having to re-record them. Put me in for counting all
versions of wonderboy as the same. Admittedly some of them are
significantly harder energy wise but who cares. People will just
record whichever version is the "easiest" and it will be "fair" as it
will become obvious which version(s) are the easiest for any
particular game.

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I do agree that there are differences in some clones that
significantly alter the gameplay. Perhaps an approach would be to
group them for the purposes of Power Ranking leaderboard points, but
keep them as separate valid entities for uploading of recordings.
Keep the best of both worlds. Perhaps even have the old style
leaderboard kept on some obscure link and the new style Power Ranking
System as the "default leaderboard".

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I think this would be better than outright banning any given version,
of course it may mean a little more work for Chris when a new release
of Mame comes out.

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What say you fellow Marp'ers to this concept?

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BeeJay.

--
bjohnstone@cardinal.co.nz

Just a pointer to a separate thread where you can vote on these
issues. Just cut and paste my message and change votes where req'd.

--
laffaye@ibm.net

I really like Beejay's idea of simply linking all clones to their
originals. The changes we were talking about were starting to get
very complicated and would need constantly updating with new MAME
releases. Why don't we allow recordings for any clone to count as an
entry for the original game in the Power Ranking system. We can build
a simple list of clones which are obviously very different, such as
trogp and piranha. These games can have there own entry.

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This system will eliminate lots of problems, allowing us to sort this
quickly and then get on with the competition.

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Dith

--
dith@europress.co.uk