PRIMELLA scoring (and vote)

[Phil]

After a big interchange of mails (about 10 in 3 days) between Skito and me,
and a complete study of the game PRIMELLA, we have unhappily different points of view ;
so this message is to ask all marpers (and especially those who have already played
the game like Frankie or Renzo Vignola) their advices to choose the way of scoring
they prefer ... Skito prefers awarding good combos than high level reached : scoring A,
when I prefer awarding higher level reached (which implies anyhow to make good combos
IMO even when reciproque is not always true) : scoring B

<p>

To be simple, you have to choose between 2 scorings :
(A) score = (last level finished)x1000 + (last positive score ending a level)
(B) score = (last level finished)x10000 + (final score, eventually corrected if negative)

<p>

For precisions on the game, its way of counting and scoring type B, you can consult
http://mapage.noos.fr/marpkt/scoring.html where I explained a few things.

<p>

Preaching for my chapel, I will give ...
Advantage of scoring B :
*it rewards mainly the highest level reached (which was the first way of scoring
naturally choosen by first players : remember scores of 7 or
*you can easily see at first sight what this level is (that explains the choice of 10000
where Skito prefers 1000, but as score could reach some values as +5000 or -5000 I think
10000 is better)
*cohesion with game Sadari which is similar
*you can know your score only looking the LAST screen (all is written there
when your game is over to calculate it) : no need to take notes during game

<p>

Inconvenients of scoring A :
*it doesn't reward the player who goes farest (look actual rankings on marp :
frankie -only level5- is 1st & Renzo -level6- is 2nd)
*it incites to "suicid"... let's take Frankie's game :
end of level 1 : 2420
2 : 3220
3 : 4150
4 : 3330
5 : 2020
6 : -250 (6cards left on screen)

<p>

So if he suicides just after level 3 he get 7150 which is better than his actual score !!
so it's useless then to try to go to higher levels (max score is always around 3 or 4 ,
after that substracted cards are too heavy)

<p>

Of course I will let Skito preaching for his own scoring ;
just waiting for all of you voting A or B

--
plamat@club-internet.fr

[Phil]

And of course I vote B !!!

--
plamat@club-internet.fr

[Chad]

The main reason I like (A) is that it rewards players who "win" the
levels getting a better per level score. The key is that you can
lose a level but still conintue the game, but you dont get to see the
lady of that level. You "win" a level when your current score on
that level bests the VS computer players score.

<p>

Disadvantage of method B: take two scores, one score (Rex) who gets
to level 7 but only wins 3 of the 6 levels completed will get a
higher score than someone (ZZT) who wins 5 of the 6 games played.

<p>

Getting to a higher level in this game is easier than winning the
levels so that's why I want to vote B.

--
churritz@cts.com

[Chad]

i was reading Phils message to much on that last sentance, I want to
vote A. but marp players should decided this.

--
churritz@cts.com

[Chad]

Interstingly enough (A) has the same Advantages phil says of B,
<p>

(A) rewards players with a score of level reached as well just not as
much.

<p>

(A) also allows you to retain your previous levels score if you
happen to make a mistake big time in your last level. With B, You
can LOSE almost half you entire previous score if you accedentally
put a card at the breaking point, since you have to subtract ALL the
cards that are left, potentially 50 cards left times 700 if you reach
the 8th level, so if you made it to 8 got 70000 or so points, you
would have to take off 50x700 = 35000 if the card went to fast,
bringing you score down to half it was previously.

<p>


Another disadvantage of B is what do you score

--
churritz@cts.com

[Phil]

No Skito max nb of cards = 30 (not 50) , and it's very improbable to
full the screen ; and remember that we only make subtraction if level
has been finished ...

--
plamat@club-internet.fr

[Chad]

You forget the situation if your card is placed at the top of the
screen (no where left to put it) you must subtract the cards in your
deck because the game ends at this point. so you can still have 6
cards on the screen and 40ish cards left in the deck when ending your
game. this is why the last level should not be counted because it
can reduce you score of a previously well played game. even if you
get to level 12, you leave 10 cards on the screen and you have a
worse score than your previous level, -12000 score for the final
level.

<p>

(i think you and i are the only one that care anyway in this debate

--
churritz@cts.com

[Phil]

Wrong ... if you have cards left in your desk, it means that you have
died by crossing the horizontal deadline and then NO SUBTRACTION, just
score=10000x(PREVIOUS level) + final score (positive) ; please re-read
scoring at propose at http://mapage.noos.fr/marpkt/scoring.html (I
have re-updated it)

<p>

Concerning the case you spoke about FINISHING level 12 with a negative
score with 10 cards left, so there, yes, there would be a subtraction
of -11000 (not -12000) ... but to a score like 120000 or so ; I don't
see any problem (excepting reaching level 12 !!

<p>

And if you look at Ozz comment on his recent recording, he also found
some problems with your scoring

<p>

I gonna take a rest : a good old shooter which counts for me )

--
plamat@club-internet.fr

[Phil]

I have to correct my previous post :
ending level 12 with 10 cards left is not -1100x10=-11000, but
-1100x9=-9900

--
plamat@club-internet.fr

[Frankie]

Hi Guys.
<p>

Sorry for my late vote on this one

<p>

I have to admit that I wondered why I was ahead of Renzo as he got
longer into the game as I did. Even though it's going to hurt myself,
I vote B.

<p>

However, I think Skito is right about his completing of level talk.
So, why not take vote B and on top of that score add 1000 points for
each level completed (seeing pretty girl)? That way you get some
award for this as well.

<p>

This is my vote.

--
frankie@image.dk

[Chad]

Frankie you might be right, after seeing ozz's recording which proves
you can not see the ladies and still get a high score with method A,
makes method A bad and method B worse.

<p>

you are missing my point entirely just to prove me wrong, phil. What
if you are at level 20 and you have 10 cards left on the screen that
means you loose ~19000 points and thus you lose almost two levels of
scoring just because you tried to finish out the last level. There
is too much of a disadvantage for including the scoring of the last
level.

<p>

Ok, for B now you've changed your scoring to not subtract the cards
if you finish the level prematurely? So you are benefiting people
who commit suicide to finish a level and penalizing people who try to
finish the last level. This seems wrong. Here are the issues in
this game:

<p>

(1) winning a level should give you points (each level you gain a
certain # of points in that level, if that point total is better than
the computer players point total you get to see a picture, if not you
see the losing picture.) Both A and B do not account for this
specifically. A does a better job because B's large points for
completing a level is given to players who "lose" a level but still
continue the game by default.

<p>

(2) completing a level should give you points. (B) does a good job in
giving you a good bonus for each level, but does not take into
account that some players can "win" more levels than others.

<p>

(3) playing the last level should not hinder your point total if you
happen to lose, because then people who commit suicide will get more
points than people who try to play the last level. (A) does the best
job on this issue because it ignores the final level which is ALWAYS
a negative score application.

<p>

Can anyone come up with something other than A and B.

--
churritz@cts.com

[Frankie]

Well, the only one I can come up with, which does not want players to
commit suicide is:

<p>

level reached*10000 + levels won*1000

<p>

This might mean that some players end up with the same score, but so
what? This method also means that you have to fight to get as fare as
possible scoring as many points in each round as possible.

<p>

I might be wrong, but why not keep it simple.

<p>

The chance of two players getting to the same level getting the same
score is not that big I think.

<p>

Let's keep it simple

<p>

Bye.

--
frankie@image.dk

[ozz]

i'm casting my vote for option B as the lesser of two evils ;>
<p>

while i do not think we should complicate things too much
(e.g. "power combination" rewards, differentiating between levels
played / levels won etc.),

<p>

i move that the amount of points for "levels completed" should be
kept down to, say, maybe 5K instead of 10K.

<p>

advantages of this:
as intended, you reap ample rewards for reaching the next level
(be honest: how often do you score more than 5K in one level anyway?)
thus preventing the "suicide option",
while good playing still effects the outcome - the difference between
so-so play and really good play would probably be another 5K points
max or about 65% (1000 points left + 5K bonus vs. 5000 pts left + 5 K
= 6K vs. 10K instead of 11//15 using the proposed 10K per level
ruling which would give only about 30% advantage for good playing)

<p>

disadvantages:
there's only one i can think of - you can't deduce the "max level
reached" from the score at first sight

<p>

ok, [BLAH] mode off!

--
OZ@BYTEWATCH.de

[Phil]

First to Frankie : you idea was good, but there is problem ... Frankie
and Skito, WHAT DO YOU CALL "WIN A LEVEL" ?
Skito says previously :"The key is that you can lose a level but still
continue the game,
but you dont get to see the lady of that level. You "win" a level
when your current
score on that level bests the VS computer players score"

<p>

IT'S WRONG ! Look at renzo's level 2 (1500 ; cpu:1600 he won) or my
own level 4 (3260 ; cpu :2070 and I don't get the girl)

<p>

To Ozz : 5000 is too short, 10000 is better. Why ?
Skito also says : "Ok, for B now you've changed your scoring to not
subtract the cards if you finish the
level prematurely? So you are benefiting people who commit
suicide to finish a level
and penalizing people who try to finish the last level"

<p>

With 10000 no real chance of benifite by suicide ; let's take an
example ... with a little practice of the game you will see that
higher scores reachable are around 5000, and subtraction with my
formula (after a lot of games played doesn't exceed -3000 or -4000 for
level 6-7-8) ; let's say I finish level 6 with 4500 : if I suicide at
7 score will be 64500 ; if I play and finish level 7 but lose and get
-3000 by my subtraction method I will have 67000 ... with only 5000
it would be not good ; of course if I reach level 20 like Skito says
(but IMO it's impossible) it might give advantage to suicid, and to
prevent that we should take 10000+ but not 5000

--
plamat@club-internet.fr

[Chad]

you like the english word "WRONG" a lot don't you phil? well this
time you are "WRONG." It is not your COMBINED score where you win,
it is the score for the "CURRENT" LEVEL that you win each level.
First level, you get 1000, computer gets 500: you win that level.
Second level, you get 500 (your score becomes 1500) computer gets 700
(computers score becomes 1200) the computer wins that level because
it's 2nd level score is higher than yours 700 to 500.

--
churritz@cts.com