forums.marpirc.net

I decided to post a message After speaking with Skito about leaderboard.
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Some months ago I posted a message on the board saying the necessity to limit the upload only to final versions of mame. Now that the problem is increased (allowing to upload games recorded with mamelang or other unofficial versions of mame and other minor problems) I ask to reopen this discussion.

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First purpose of Marp is to be a great collection of inp, but the second is that these inp had to be easily playbackable.
When I have great recordings but I cannot replay them (because they were done with unofficial version of mame and maybe with sound or others settings changed), it is the same to have not them at all.

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In marp there are many confirmers and they do their best but it is not acceptable they had to spend hours trying all the combination possible to playback an input (and it is possible that it is a
broken inp!!).

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It is possibly that will come out soon (i think) a new tgmame version that will not allow any type of cheating. This version( like the older) will be created only for the final version of Mame.

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What I think is that it could be a good idea to make an alternate leaderboard containing only records done with the new tg version of mame (obviously without deleting older records).

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This will be good for many reason :

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1) Easier life for confirmers to check recordings

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2) Easier life for players who will have only to download 2 versions
of mame every 6/9 months instead of 3/4 versions every 3 weeks

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3) Easier life for all who want to see sometimes a recording (an inp
is eeasily downloadable but if I had to download 2mb of mame for
every inp it is not so easy)

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In this case the site will be accessible to many more people.

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Moreover updating the site only for changes from a final version to another will clear the situation on marp.
In many games I found broken or incorrect inp or default settings changed.Updating only sometimes we can create a page with the difference and many other things (this is not so easy with 18 betas a year).

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Finally : for clearness it will be good to include in the zip file a txt file in which you say the command line you used to replay the inp (for dos users) or the changes you done to default settings (for win users).

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I hope to have bored noone with this post but I think this is the only solution to have only right inp.

--
adeidda@inwind.it

I hate this idea with a passion, and will repost my reasons if need
be (the Editors have been dicussing this issue, as skito and I have
very different opinions on this topic). Let me state something both
as the Rules Coordinator, an Editor, a Confirmer, and a Player at
MARP, so that there is no confusion to anyone out there. The player
is responsible for making sure their .inps play back, not the
confirmers. Some confirmers like skito are especially tolerant in
this regard, and will try multiple combinations to play back an .inp.
Personally, I try two combinations- with sound and without- if
nothing is written in the decription field. I then ask another
confirmer to double check the .inp and .nv. If neither of us can play
it back, it's gone. If a player wants to request time to reupload
another recording since he can make the same score again, that's
fine, I've done this on a few games, most notably Discs of Tron
(environmental) which would not play back because of an error in
MAME32v.36's production cycle. There is, however, nothing wrong with
the current leaderboard and it would be a waste of time and resources
to create an entirely new one. Time would be better spent modifying
and improving the current one.

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And no program is impossible to hack. None. That's the first law of
hacking.

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Q.T.Quazar

--
qan@home.com

I agree with Sakuragi in may respects that confirming should be
easier than it is. A lot of players don't care if their recordings
playback for others and submit because they've played it back
themselves (not remembering perhaps they recorded with out sound/with
an unofficial mame version, with a nvram file, etc.) when they could
easily just put they're settings in a text file or in the upload
description.

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QT has some very good points against having an additional
TGleaderboard. I think the most convincing is that it may effectly
reduce the worth that some marpers have spent in climbing up the
current leaderboard.

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But having a tgleaderboard doesn't remove the current leaderboard,
it's simply a new method of scoring where only tgmame recordings
would be tallyed up on a different leadboard page. Everyone would
have a regular marp submission score and a tgmame submision score.
Where all recordings submited to marp with a tgmame version would be
accepted with only TG or harder settings, and count twoards your tg
score. Anyone new to marp would still be able to upload with non
tgmame versions and they would be scored as they have been scored.
The tgmame leaderboard would just be a different way to compete.

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This would eliminate the issue of spliting games that are marathoned
with regular mame, since any tgmame recording would be scrutinized
for correct non-marathoned settings, and the regular mame submisions
could be used for default mame settings.

--
churritz@cts.com

Q.T.Quazar, excerpts from original post on why TG leadebroard is a
bad idea, from the Editor's Board (all comments within this and the
subsequent posts have been scanned and edited to protect Editor-only
sensitive material):

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A) It will shift focus almost exclusively to the new board,
potentially leaving regular MARP as a 'dumping ground' for .inps not
good enough for the tourney or the TG leaderboard.

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B) I would estimate 95-97% of current MARP scores are legit.

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C) TgMAME is NOT a valid MAME derivative because of closed source and
encryption(flashes of Stig here, but he IS right in this respect),
and if the MAME team asked us to withdraw its circulation we would be
required to do so.

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D) Added focus to TG-only would increase the likelihood of people
spending more time hacking it.

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E) More work for Zwaxy, because none of us have code access except
for gb9, and anytime he plays with the code he breaks the Up Loads
screen (sorry GB, that was low ) (does Pat have access to code, or
only to the game database?)

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skito, excerpts from rebuttal

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Some comments on qt's adamant refusal to accept the possibility of a
tg leaderboard... I realise i'm probably in the minority here but i
have to address these issues. A) It will shift focus almost
exclusively to the new board: Isn't that the point? i think having
more focused towards tgmame recordings would eliminate a large amount
of pausing and slowdowns, right now they are our major problem. B) I
would estimate 95-97% of current MARP scores are legit. Agreed: but
i'd say an average marp player can not playback 50% of the recordings
because most people don't have the time to track down
dos/windows/xmame versions to play them back. with tgmame we can
consolidate the recordings so they'll be more playbackable and more
accessable to all that come here (one world, one version) C) TgMAME
is NOT a valid MAME derivative because of closed source and
encryption. We face this same issues with tournaments and tgmame
recordings on the regular board, this is not an additional concern.
D) Added focus to TG-only would increase the likelihood of people
spending more time hacking it.

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Tournament's are already focus enough to make this hacking probablity
increase; plus, it's a lot easier to hack 8 recordings than to hack
100s that would be required to gain access to the top 10 leaderboard.

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E) More work for Zwaxy

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zwaxy's not doing any work right now This is the only major
concern here that it might not be able to be done with the time
allocated

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Q.T.Quazar, excerpts from rebuttal

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Your argument is somewhat persuasive along the 'one world, one
version' lines, but you fail to realize that by allowing TG MAME only
you then eliminate Mac, UNIX, and other OS users, who do not have TG
MAME versions available. The only way to get it to them is to open
the code. Catch 22.

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Not mentioned in my original post is my belief that a TG MAME only
MARP will not be effective at attracting new players. With may pick
up a few more of the 'premiers,' but noone will come join to try out
the new beta games. With some of the established score bases for
previous betas at MARP, people won't challenge those either. No
influx.

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If we implement a new, TG-only leaderboard, we will essentially be
saying that the old leaderboard is worthless, and the scores on it
are not to be trusted. This is primarily why I am so vehemently
opposed to the idea. Some of my .inps, like my own 500K+whatever on
Magical Drop 3 (Challenge Mode Normal), are extremely, EXTREMELY hard
to do, and I have no wish to try and replicate that score for another
leaderboard. Opinion on this topic is of course going to be skewed by
those who have less invested in the current leaderboard towards those
who have more. While I imagine Mark would think a TG leaderboard to
be a great idea, I doubt very much that BBH would. I have hundreds of
hours invested in recording to MARP, and I don't wish my scores to be
junked simply because a few players can't play fair.

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I don't like the attitude that is beginning to prevail with some
people at MARP that TGMAME, and even TG, is the answer to all our
problems. TGMAME is an ILLEGAL VERSION of an emulator of QUESTIONABLE
LEGALITY using ROMS which ARE ILLEGAL. There is no need to compound
this problem further by pursuing routes of exclusivity .I can't
stress this enough. Yes we use TGMAME in tournaments. Yes we use
TGMAME to be sure of a player's skill. But the challenge motion is
the last step needed towards proving a score, and it doesn't require
TGMAME to be THE MAIN FOCUS, only part of the process. Your argument
of "We face this same issues with tournaments and tgmame recordings
on the regular board, this is not an additional concern." is the same
logic as pretending that the left hand doesn't know what the right
hand is doing. Having TG only also puts the power of design for such
a thing strictly in the hands of the coder(s). While I would not make
any accusations, that's an exclusivity arrangement that is
unacceptable to an open community like MARP.

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skito, excerpts from rebuttal

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About eliminating users by encouraging tgmame: We only eliminate them
untill we can teach mark or whom ever how to compile it on that
platform. It is easy as heck to compile xmame (probably about a
hundred times less complex than dos mame), inserting the encryption
code would be another issue but once it's compiled you can distribute
the binaries, i know all of the xmame uploaders use linux so that
binary will suffice for 100% of the unix users so far. I'll use the
C) rebuttal again, this is already an issue with the tournaments, no
mac players, no unix players...

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yep nearly everything everyone does before they upload to marp is
illegal. tgmame is sort of an illegal mame version. even krogman was
uploading a version of tetris i knew he didn't own, plus that magix
one... We take this risk because we love the games for one reason or
another. I think the rom legality is a bit more criminal than the
tgmame legality; Although two wrongs definitley don't make a right,
one wrong and another minor wrong doesn't make it much more wronger.
(i love debating with english majors

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about not wanting to make recordings again for mag drop and bbh
having tons of scores "supposed" he doesn't want to record again,
This is what challenges are going to do: make someone honest (or not)
attempt to make another bitchingly hard recording. anyone who's spent
time in a game WILL be challenged to replay it. A tgleaderboard puts
less pressure on the players rather than having their recordings
challenged by the marp team. they can upgrade their recordings when
they feel like it. although i like the challenge system we are
proposing, ben's ideas are great (the minimum requirement is game
dependant not a fixed percentage, this would depend on the jury being
experts in the game another problem with selecting a jury of peers.)

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With a tg leaderboard you don't have to make all your recordings
again. There will be no denial of service for people that want to
upload non tg recordings, they'd still be welcome as ever. And you'll
still have your regular marp score as you would always have, you
could even improve upon it.

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As for losing your hard worked "invested" points. nothing is lost,
there is just more opporunity to play. Everyone starts from scratch
(except for the biased few that competed in tournaments or record
with tg when ever they can) and i doubt anyone will have as many
recordings as they do on the regular board.

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Q.T.Quazar, final comments:

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These excerpts from the Editor's Board originated as a discussion of
whether or not we should introduce a challenge system at MARP, to
which skito is somewhat opposed (he prefers a TG leaderboard
instead), and which I am for. I can also post the discussion about
that later, but need to make sure there's nothing in there to offend
regular MARPers. I feel the challenge system would be a far better
method of veryfying recordings and ensuring legitimacy. I will state,
however, that I will not play under a TG-only leaderboard, if the
code for TGMAME stays in the hands of a select few who do not have to
answer to anyone else at the community. I may not like what Stig did
at MARP, but he WAS right on a number of points. Just as MAME was
meant to be open, so was MARP.

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Q.T.Quazar,
MARP Rules Coordinator

--
qan@home.com

QT, I would only be in agreement for the challenge rule if it could
only be put in force by another player challenging in that game, per
TG current rules. Also, that player would have to be within a certain
range in order to challenge, like top 3-5...

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TGonly leaderboard, no way in hell...

--
cparsley1@hotmail.com

yeah, my view is skewed, but to the TG leaderboard I say: NO.
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I have uploaded recordings to this site for over two years. But
because someone else cheats, I get kicked in the ass and say "Sorry,
all those recordings you've UL'ed are worth nothing"? Am I to spend
another two years regaining all those scores? This practically comes
off as an insult, as I have always kept things honest. I don't use
autofire, I don't play on framerates slower than 100%.

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If a score of mine is in question, then tell me. I might be willing to
re-record with a TGMAME (but like QT said, these versions aren't the
be-all and end-all answer to cheating problems). But I simply do not
have the time or desire to go through and re-do a couple hundred
recordings. I'll just find better things to do with my time.

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-BBH

--
lordbbh@aol.com

Like BBH, I too have been here for around two years, not that I
upload all that often. But it still represents those two years or
so, and to say that it's worthless, it makes you wonder "what's the
point?"

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I also agree that XMAME is a lot easier to compile than MAME, most
required parts are included in most distributions. XMAME doesn't use
either Allegro or SEAL, so they aren't needed.

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But don't forget the foreign language versions of MAME out there, not
everyone actually speaks english (like SNK )

--
bsr@hn.pl.net

There really should NOT be a new leaderboard. There really should be
a challenge system. We've been talking about one challenge / person
with a jury of say Q.T.(rules coordinator), another editor, an expert
in the game if available, and 2 other regular MARPers.

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I feel there should be another rule: no unofficial versions. Betas
should be permitted, but we really shouldn't allow unofficial versions
(with all respects to those who speak a different language) because
of the fact that it's another MAME we have to download. Betas and
finals are enough thank you - adding unofficial versions would take
forever to try to play something back for a confirmer - usually
because it won't playback on an official MAME.

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Thanks for reading my thoughts on the matter. GB9

--
goldengameboy@yahoo.com

Well when bbh talks people listen... Chalk up another loss for a
simple page that would list scores recorded in a secure mame. I
still say an additional leaderboard calculation would not make old
scores worse off, but obviously there are fears. The intention is to
relieve many problems that sakuragi has pointed out that DO exist by
encouraging more tgmame uploads. And they are not just (1) cheating
problems; there are (2) playback problems with unofficial versions
(is not allowing these going to be enforced?), (3) finding an old
beta version that may not be on a diffs page someday and (4) allowing
a casual marp viewer being able to playback 1000s of inps using just
a few exes instead of requiring 100s of exes (and
recreating/destroying registry settings for the windows versions)
just do playback a the same 1000 inps.

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I hope there is some form of encouragement towards fewer versions in
the future. Perhaps we could debate a rule that if a game plays back
fine (with good colors and gameplay) with the last final version then
no other versions would be accepted...

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Challenges will be accepted once we get a new version of tgmame.

--
churritz@cts.com