Astyanax infinite leech

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Astyanax infinite leech

Post by BBH »

http://replay.marpirc.net/inp/b/e/7/pg3 ... olf242.zip
http://replay.marpirc.net/inp/2/d/d/pg3 ... olf242.zip
http://replay.marpirc.net/inp/a/a/7/pg3 ... olf242.zip
http://replay.marpirc.net/inp/c/1/3/pg3 ... olf242.zip
http://replay.marpirc.net/inp/6/c/7/pg3 ... olf242.zip

as I expected, PG3 decided to make use of an infinite leech exploit in The Astyanax / The Lord of King. I knew of this trick but didn't want to use it because it's in direct violation of rule 2H - "h) Point or life leeching is strongly discouraged, and banned on some games, as described in the banned techniques list, or in the specific game's special rules. You cannot continuously gain points without some degree of risk and you must keep moving to complete a level."

What is the leeching in question? Early in level 1 you can position yourself in a spot in which you can keep killing enemies over and over. The game has a timer, but it also has a secondary timer in which a blue flame is spawned to chase the player. When sitting in this spot though, the flame never touches the player, and eventually leaves. This leeching is possible because the game awards way too many extra lives - by default it awards them at 30k, 70k, 110k, and then every 30k thereafter (140k, 170k, 200k, etc). The only other setting for extra lives is 50k, 100k, and then every 40k (140k, 180k, 220k, etc). They can not be disabled entirely.

A sped-up sample of the leeching in question can be seen here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ylSqwYOeUo

No effort is made to make progress and this should 100% be banned. What special rules should be used though? The most obvious solution would be a 5 lives limit like Ghosts 'n Goblins - although I don't think encouraging someone to leech here for 4 lives and then try to finish the game on their 5th life is very exciting.

Since the blue flame only appears when deliberate leeching is done without any effort to make progress in the game, I feel like your credit should be over if the blue flame appears. It is possible to leech on certain points and keep advancing the screen little by little without triggering the blue flame.
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Re: Astyanax infinite leech

Post by GHEMANT »

In this type of games, the only sensible rule is a "no miss" completion as in Wardner. So a single life available.

I had already worked on the game, with various tests, understanding that the only possible rule for hi-score is precisely this.

Here my video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lph17D4_K7i
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Re: Astyanax infinite leech

Post by BBH »

Well... 1 life is pretty extreme. I'm not sure I really feel like that's the best solution for this, but given the lack of replies to this thread it doesn't seem like anyone else is really interested in salvaging any sort of play for this on MARP, which isn't surprising. But I refuse to let the infinite leech stand because it's 100% against the rules.

Also your video link doesn't work.
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Re: Astyanax infinite leech

Post by GHEMANT »

For some reason the link has changed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lph17D4_k7I&t=992s

1 life clear is an extreme solution, I'm agree. In Arca project I still established a lighter condition, even if in the end I was also able to satisfy the condition of the "No Miss Clear".

Special Rule: the loss of life is not allowed in areas that have a respawn enemies (during the stage 1, 2, 5), the final boss must be shot down within the 199 seconds.
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Re: Astyanax infinite leech

Post by giro-X »

Yay, forum works!
I missed the sensation of seeing what I was typing. Thanks seymour! So unfortunate you didn't see any of the messages earlier.


I agree that 1 life only is too extreme. Works for ARCA, but not for a leaderboard open to anyone.
To meet both interests, we could use a special rule for scoring that detracts an amount of points per time over trigger AND life loss (otherwise one could trigger blue flame and proceed to clear a level, or lose a life at few seconds to the end).
Instead I find it more simple, in my opinion, to use the Nastar strats. Particular type of intentional leeching detected = DQ. (recalling: nastar has a neverending-spawn enemy in last stage where a time bonus can be won at random. Marp special rules DQ the score if that is repeated.)
In which case, we'd have to define exactly what is allowed in leeching and what now. As it might not be interesting to watch leeching, it is also a skill to calculate the time needed to complete a round, and risking a life for that. I'd say "Leeching that causes, directly or undirectly, a loss of a life, will result in a DQ." Directly as in: you suicide to reset timer and keep leeching. Undirectly as: you spent too much time leeching earlier and died to time over OR because of a mistake you did that could be avoided by not rushing the level completion (this would have to be judged together). And innocent mistakes due to lack of method (like: trying your best to proceed in a level without farming but yet not being able to clear it on time) should not matter.
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Re: Astyanax infinite leech

Post by Kale »

I simply vote for not letting the blue will o wisp to appear, at all. If it does then your run is nil.
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Re: Astyanax infinite leech

Post by BBH »

Kale wrote: Sun Apr 10, 2022 7:09 pm I simply vote for not letting the blue will o wisp to appear, at all. If it does then your run is nil.
I still think this is the best solution for the problem.

To clarify - the blue will o'wisp / blue flame shows up when you haven't scrolled the screen in a while. Every time the screen scrolls forward, the timer resets a little bit.I haven't been able to figure out the exact formula, but generally speaking as you long keep moving forward every few seconds, you're fine. You can still do SOME leeching, but get too greedy and you have to give up the credit.

I guess the thing about a life limit is that if's set to anything higher than 1 life, then the optimal play is to do this boring leeching on every life until your last life and THEN try to finish the game. And that's not fun.
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Re: Astyanax infinite leech

Post by giro-X »

Oh well, it has been a while I didn't play or test the game but yeah, if the blue flame can appear when timer is not zero... then this is an easier choice. I'd agree with that.
How much consensus is needed to adopt a special rule? 🤔
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Re: Astyanax infinite leech

Post by BBH »

giro-X wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 5:22 pm Oh well, it has been a while I didn't play or test the game but yeah, if the blue flame can appear when timer is not zero... then this is an easier choice. I'd agree with that.
How much consensus is needed to adopt a special rule? 🤔
Considering how long it takes to get things done around here sometimes, I feel inclined to just make the change now (or at least, soon). If anybody disagrees on this decision, please speak up now.
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Re: Astyanax infinite leech

Post by Cicca »

I definitely agree !!! =D>
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Re: Astyanax infinite leech

Post by mahlemiut »

No argument from me
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Re: Astyanax infinite leech

Post by BBH »

Special rules updated, stage 1 leeching scores DQ'ed.
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Re: Astyanax infinite leech

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Re: Astyanax infinite leech

Post by Phil Lamat »

Well, I'm late on this one, but special rule seems the best choice to me too.
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