Clones, clones, what did the clones do to you recently?
All grouping or disallowing clones would do is to diminish the quality and the amount of games recording here, diminishing the experience for all.
--
cparsley1@hotmail.com
Clones, clones, why bash the clones?
Moderator: Chad
-
Chad
I think what is diminishing the experience for most is that people who
happen to be good at 3 multi clone games will get a much better score
than people who happen to be good at 3 non cloned games. When both
types of people are equally good at the similar number of games.
<p>
Clones get a unnecesary scoring benefit, and that is about to be
changed.
--
churritz@cts.com
happen to be good at 3 multi clone games will get a much better score
than people who happen to be good at 3 non cloned games. When both
types of people are equally good at the similar number of games.
<p>
Clones get a unnecesary scoring benefit, and that is about to be
changed.
--
churritz@cts.com
)-
Chad
i can only guess what zwaxy (you) will do. it looked like you were
anyways from that last comment in the YANL thread
my mistake
again, i ass-u-me d.
--
churritz@cts.com
anyways from that last comment in the YANL thread
my mistakeagain, i ass-u-me d.
--
churritz@cts.com
-
Zwaxy
I was joking. Now that I've realised what an accomplished programmer
you are I was hoping that you were offering to change the script for
me... (not that it's a big change)
<p>
Do you have a plan view of the route your 'scenic tour' program took
through the various maps it was given to work on? I don't find the
POV-Ray images very clear at all.
--
zwaxy@bigfoot.com
you are I was hoping that you were offering to change the script for
me... (not that it's a big change)
<p>
Do you have a plan view of the route your 'scenic tour' program took
through the various maps it was given to work on? I don't find the
POV-Ray images very clear at all.
--
zwaxy@bigfoot.com
-
Chris Parsley
Don't get me wrong, I'm not the best on any clones, my scores will
more than tell that. I consider MARP like one really huge arcade,
with all the games of the world waiting for me without having to put
a quarter (or quarters, as the case may be) in. Now, in that light,
a clone is nothing more than another beast, sitting and waiting for
your coinage and your play. If you diminish the role of the clones,
not only do you diminish some very good games, you also diminish the
role of games throughout history.
--
cparsley1@hotmail.com
more than tell that. I consider MARP like one really huge arcade,
with all the games of the world waiting for me without having to put
a quarter (or quarters, as the case may be) in. Now, in that light,
a clone is nothing more than another beast, sitting and waiting for
your coinage and your play. If you diminish the role of the clones,
not only do you diminish some very good games, you also diminish the
role of games throughout history.
--
cparsley1@hotmail.com
-
Chad
I do have that same idea as MAME being one big arcade with clonesupon clones awaiting quarters as you see fit to use them. However,
the tabular clone scoring method (each score is divided by the number
of clones/origonals of that game you are playing), each clone is
represented so scores will not diminish, the other clone scoring methods
group all clones together some methods excluding clones entirely which is
bad because it's political. I am good a few clone games (still making up a good % of my score.) so i have everything to lose by a clone scoring method, but i think it's fairer.
--
churritz@cts.com
the tabular clone scoring method (each score is divided by the number
of clones/origonals of that game you are playing), each clone is
represented so scores will not diminish, the other clone scoring methods
group all clones together some methods excluding clones entirely which is
bad because it's political. I am good a few clone games (still making up a good % of my score.) so i have everything to lose by a clone scoring method, but i think it's fairer.
--
churritz@cts.com
-
Angry
Clones are good, and should be kept in the scoring mix.
<p>
Imagine back in the golden age of video games...
<p>
Your local arcade would pick up 2, 3, or more cabinets of the same
game. As a player attempting to enter my name into the high score
list, I found it necessary to get the highest score on ALL of the
duplicate machines - not just the first one in the place. This means
that I would play as many games as it would take to enter my initials
in the top position on that machine.
<p>
Granted, my tendancy to do this was focused more on the games that
had permanent high score lists.
<p>
Secondly, as to equal/max scores being treated equally... I am
against this also. As again, on most classic arcade games, if a 2nd
player earns a score equal to the previous player - their score is
placed into 2nd place (the exception to this was on early Williams
Electronics games, where the newest score was placed atop the list).
<p>
Another 4 cents, into the pot (up to $48.60 by now, methinks)
<p>
=Angry=
--
greggg@ix.netcom.com
<p>
Imagine back in the golden age of video games...
<p>
Your local arcade would pick up 2, 3, or more cabinets of the same
game. As a player attempting to enter my name into the high score
list, I found it necessary to get the highest score on ALL of the
duplicate machines - not just the first one in the place. This means
that I would play as many games as it would take to enter my initials
in the top position on that machine.
<p>
Granted, my tendancy to do this was focused more on the games that
had permanent high score lists.
<p>
Secondly, as to equal/max scores being treated equally... I am
against this also. As again, on most classic arcade games, if a 2nd
player earns a score equal to the previous player - their score is
placed into 2nd place (the exception to this was on early Williams
Electronics games, where the newest score was placed atop the list).
<p>
Another 4 cents, into the pot (up to $48.60 by now, methinks)
<p>
=Angry=
--
greggg@ix.netcom.com
-
BeeJay
You suggestion re equal scores would be fine were it not for maxed
out games like the bowling games.
<p>
Why should someone get "bonus" points just because they were the
first to upload a perfect score - especially if they happened to be
the first person to spot that Zwaxy had updated his board for the new
release.
<p>
With a games where it's possible to beat the previous high then your
argument would be acceptable to me anyway.
<p>
BeeJay.
<p>
PS: $72.95 but then $NZ aren't worth as much as $US......
<p>
PPS: I know that's not a multiple of 0.02 but here in NZ we wiped
out our 1" and 2" coins some time ago and final prices are now
rounded to the nearest 5".
<p>
PPPS: I've now totally swapped sides (again) and want to see the
clones stay!!!!
--
bjohnstone@cardinal.co.nz
out games like the bowling games.
<p>
Why should someone get "bonus" points just because they were the
first to upload a perfect score - especially if they happened to be
the first person to spot that Zwaxy had updated his board for the new
release.
<p>
With a games where it's possible to beat the previous high then your
argument would be acceptable to me anyway.
<p>
BeeJay.
<p>
PS: $72.95 but then $NZ aren't worth as much as $US......
<p>
PPS: I know that's not a multiple of 0.02 but here in NZ we wiped
out our 1" and 2" coins some time ago and final prices are now
rounded to the nearest 5".
<p>
PPPS: I've now totally swapped sides (again) and want to see the
clones stay!!!!
--
bjohnstone@cardinal.co.nz
-
Chris Parsley
Power to Angry, I agree totally.
Keep clones alive! Keep clones alive! (Personally, I'm referring to
actual made clones, and not to any hacked games by someone who NEVER
appeared at the arcades.)
--
cparsley1@hotmail.com
Keep clones alive! Keep clones alive! (Personally, I'm referring to
actual made clones, and not to any hacked games by someone who NEVER
appeared at the arcades.)
--
cparsley1@hotmail.com
-
JoustGod
I think Angry has made an excellent point here. I was the same as him
when it came to topping out any available game in an arcade that I
was good at whether it was one game or 3...didn't matter, my ego just
wanted to see "JDR" at the top of the board.
<p>
Secondly, we are all gathered here my friends, in competition using
an emulator called MAME (whadda ya think the "M" in MARP stands
for?). The MAME dev team (well, with an exception or two maybe)
could probably care less about us MARPers and our debates. Thus, they
have developed a wonderful piece of programming that we all use for
our competition without regard to how including clones/ re-licensed
or any other variation affects MARP. We have chosen this particular
emulator as our vehicle to ride in and it's a fine vehicle indeed. If
there happens to be a multitude of games with clones that a
particular player is good at and gives him a slight advantage (and I
emphasis slight...remember, we are past the 1400 game mark and I
seriously doubt that a game with 10 clones is going to affect
anything that dramatically) then so be it. For those of you familiar
with baseball, I offer this analogy. I doubt if Mark Mcgwire sat
around and bemoaned the fact that Sammy Sosa had an "advantage" by
playing in the home run-friendly Wrigley Field. Instead, he worked
with the situation he had and overcame such an "advantage" in winning
1998's baseball home run race. What I'm saying is, let the clones
stay as in the past. I'm sure that all of us at some point will find
a favorite game that has clones attached to it. If not, then there
are 1400+ games to attack! That's more than enough to eliminate any
perceived "advantage" that the clone-playing MARPer seems to have.
<p>
The thing about MARP that I've always enjoyed is that it has an open,
"wild west" feel about it. I'm hoping that it doesn't succumb to
being shackled with restrictions. Of course, there has to be some
kind of order as far as settings and game play techniques go and
that's what Angry's page addresses.
<p>
For those who want a more structured type of competition, I believe
the upcoming MARP tourney will suit you fine. It is an excellent idea
and I hope we have a lot of participation. Also on the structured
side, our fellow MARPer, Mark Longridge, does a great job in
maintaining the Twin Galaxies MAME high score page. If recognition is
what you're looking for, this is certainly an important site to check
out. The mission of TG differs from MARP and that's OK by me as I
think the two sites complement each other very well.
<p>
Well, I've gone on long enough. (I can now see everyone's head
nodding in agreement!)
<p>
JoustGod
--
pinballwiz1@msn.com
when it came to topping out any available game in an arcade that I
was good at whether it was one game or 3...didn't matter, my ego just
wanted to see "JDR" at the top of the board.
<p>
Secondly, we are all gathered here my friends, in competition using
an emulator called MAME (whadda ya think the "M" in MARP stands
for?). The MAME dev team (well, with an exception or two maybe
) could probably care less about us MARPers and our debates. Thus, they
have developed a wonderful piece of programming that we all use for
our competition without regard to how including clones/ re-licensed
or any other variation affects MARP. We have chosen this particular
emulator as our vehicle to ride in and it's a fine vehicle indeed. If
there happens to be a multitude of games with clones that a
particular player is good at and gives him a slight advantage (and I
emphasis slight...remember, we are past the 1400 game mark and I
seriously doubt that a game with 10 clones is going to affect
anything that dramatically) then so be it. For those of you familiar
with baseball, I offer this analogy. I doubt if Mark Mcgwire sat
around and bemoaned the fact that Sammy Sosa had an "advantage" by
playing in the home run-friendly Wrigley Field. Instead, he worked
with the situation he had and overcame such an "advantage" in winning
1998's baseball home run race. What I'm saying is, let the clones
stay as in the past. I'm sure that all of us at some point will find
a favorite game that has clones attached to it. If not, then there
are 1400+ games to attack! That's more than enough to eliminate any
perceived "advantage" that the clone-playing MARPer seems to have.
<p>
The thing about MARP that I've always enjoyed is that it has an open,
"wild west" feel about it. I'm hoping that it doesn't succumb to
being shackled with restrictions. Of course, there has to be some
kind of order as far as settings and game play techniques go and
that's what Angry's page addresses.
<p>
For those who want a more structured type of competition, I believe
the upcoming MARP tourney will suit you fine. It is an excellent idea
and I hope we have a lot of participation. Also on the structured
side, our fellow MARPer, Mark Longridge, does a great job in
maintaining the Twin Galaxies MAME high score page. If recognition is
what you're looking for, this is certainly an important site to check
out. The mission of TG differs from MARP and that's OK by me as I
think the two sites complement each other very well.
<p>
Well, I've gone on long enough. (I can now see everyone's head
nodding in agreement!)
<p>
JoustGod
--
pinballwiz1@msn.com
-
JSW
I'm probably a bit out of touch here but anyway:
<p>
Why disallow clones? They've always been a part of MARP. If a player
is good enough to get a decent score on one particular game, why
can't he/she put in the same effort for all the clones?
<p>
As for the tourney, well I'd like to vote but I'll be away in the
next few weeks (going back to Christchurch, yeah baby!). But I'm sure
I'd crush Beejays efforts in Gyruss and Juno First :p
--
usagi@beyond.net.au
<p>
Why disallow clones? They've always been a part of MARP. If a player
is good enough to get a decent score on one particular game, why
can't he/she put in the same effort for all the clones?
<p>
As for the tourney, well I'd like to vote but I'll be away in the
next few weeks (going back to Christchurch, yeah baby!). But I'm sure
I'd crush Beejays efforts in Gyruss and Juno First :p
--
usagi@beyond.net.au
-
Chad
Initially, the trend wasn't to dissalow clones, but to simply make the
scores reachable on games with clones more comparable to games with
out clones. When this was mentioned, other ideas prospered, injecting
that we should only keep the origonal game and/or combine all the
clones of one game into a separate game, excluding possibly bootleg or
some how "lacking" clones.
<p>
I don't think i'd mind keeping the clones in as they were, since there
are problems any route you take to adjust scores. I'd definitley like
that group all clones togehter as the same game strategy taken out. I
will still defend the tabular scoring method for clones would be a
fairer prospect with out excluding any clones.
<p>
(btw, sosa did had a slight advantage, but it's not like it doubled
the number of homeruns he hit compared to mac
--
churritz@cts.com
scores reachable on games with clones more comparable to games with
out clones. When this was mentioned, other ideas prospered, injecting
that we should only keep the origonal game and/or combine all the
clones of one game into a separate game, excluding possibly bootleg or
some how "lacking" clones.
<p>
I don't think i'd mind keeping the clones in as they were, since there
are problems any route you take to adjust scores. I'd definitley like
that group all clones togehter as the same game strategy taken out. I
will still defend the tabular scoring method for clones would be a
fairer prospect with out excluding any clones.
<p>
(btw, sosa did had a slight advantage, but it's not like it doubled
the number of homeruns he hit compared to mac
--
churritz@cts.com
-
BeeJay
Hey JSW, good to hear you're going to be back in town sometime soon.
You'll have to get Krool to let me know you're in town and if it
suits we can meet and put a face to the name.
<p>
I met Krool for the first time a few weeks back so it'd be nice to
put another face to another fellow MARPer.
<p>
BeeJay.
<p>
PS: Thrash my Gyruss and Juno First scores....... I think we'd both
end up tired and RSI'd before one of us calls it a day... ;-p
--
bjohnstone@cardinal.co.nz
You'll have to get Krool to let me know you're in town and if it
suits we can meet and put a face to the name.
<p>
I met Krool for the first time a few weeks back so it'd be nice to
put another face to another fellow MARPer.
<p>
BeeJay.
<p>
PS: Thrash my Gyruss and Juno First scores....... I think we'd both
end up tired and RSI'd before one of us calls it a day... ;-p
--
bjohnstone@cardinal.co.nz