wh1, wh1h, and wh2 splits please

[Q.T.Quazar]

all three have a deathmatch feature, different from the regular game.

wh2j has a challenege a fighter feature, but you can challenge the same fighter over and over, so i don't think it qualifies as a split (can be played indefinitely by exploiting one opponent's weakness)

thanks,
Q.T.Quazar

[mahlemiut]

I don't think it's really different enough to warrant a split - it's effectively the same as normal, but with mines and spikes and stuff. Maybe it's a touch harder too. Any more opinions?

[Q.T.Quazar]

The differences that I know of are as follows:

1) Coninuous life bar between the two players...you only win by eventually having full energy and knocking your opponent's all the way down to nothing.

2) Hazardous environment. All of the different cage matchs feature a different kind of punishing object (electric cages, sawblades, etc.)

3) Different aproach to gameplay. Time is increased, life is different as well, and players receive higher scores because of this. Someone could score higher on Deathmatch than on normal play.

Now, not to bring up bad blood, but I would argue that this is a more significant difference than, say, Tokkae-dama, which as far as I can tell, breaks into normal mode and special mode, both of which feature exactly the same gameplay, but with higher difficulty and higher scoring. If tokkae-dama has a special mode, why doesn't magical drop 3?--in fact, i thought we went back and eliminated the magical drop 3 splits for exactly this reason?

So now I'm confused...all this is is a difficulty and scoring variation... perhaps someone can explain the logic to me, unless I'm missing something. I don't particularly care about the wh splits, but i'd at least like to know that there is some kind of precedent at work here...

sincerely,
Q.T.Quazar

[BBH]

The differences that I know of are as follows:

1) Coninuous life bar between the two players...you only win by eventually having full energy and knocking your opponent's all the way down to nothing.

That applies to World Heroes 2 only. not 1

2) Hazardous environment. All of the different cage matchs feature a different kind of punishing object (electric cages, sawblades, etc.)

True, but the same basic gameplay still applies.

3) Different aproach to gameplay. Time is increased, life is different as well, and players receive higher scores because of this. Someone could score higher on Deathmatch than on normal play.

Or lower scores, and the things you refer to (more time, different lifebar) again only applies to part 2, not 1.

Now, not to bring up bad blood, but I would argue that this is a more significant difference than, say, Tokkae-dama, which as far as I can tell, breaks into normal mode and special mode, both of which feature exactly the same gameplay, but with higher difficulty and higher scoring. If tokkae-dama has a special mode, why doesn't magical drop 3?--in fact, i thought we went back and eliminated the magical drop 3 splits for exactly this reason?

So now I'm confused...all this is is a difficulty and scoring variation... perhaps someone can explain the logic to me, unless I'm missing something. I don't particularly care about the wh splits, but i'd at least like to know that there is some kind of precedent at work here...

I'm not at all familiar with Tokkae-dama, and as to how different the modes vary in terms of score. So I have nothing to say about that.

But as for World Heroes, I really don't think the splits are necessary. Especially since both modes share the same high score list. You're still scoring points the exact same way, especially in World Heroes 1, the only difference that exists is the 1-round format in World Heroes 2. But again, same high score list.

So I really think the mode should just be selected at the player's discretion with no split. It's no different than selecting a character, really. Certain characters are easier to get higher scores with, making the others suffer... but there's not much that can be done about that. Just use whatever mode you think is going to give you the most points.

Oh, and the World Heroes 2 Jet "Versus" mode can only be done for four matches, not indefinitely. 4th win is Game Over.

[Q.T.Quazar]

ah, k, well that answers a few questions i had. thank-you, BBH.

as i said, it doesn't really matter to me if WH1 etc. gets split, but i WOULD like to know why taisen puzzle-dama and taisen tokkae-dama have splits for expert after Magical Drop 2 and 3's were eliminated. this seems unfair. i happen to like taisen and tokkae games, and am all for splitting an expert or special or whatever you want to call it mode for each of them (i am scoring LB points off them, after all), but i thought we decided over a year ago that if the gameplay was identical, then it was player's choice and not a split.

what taisen-sp and tokkae-sp amount to right now is the old magdrop2-vsh? and magdrop3-vsh? (maybe h was e?) which we eliminated because there was, at one point, magdrop3-mj -pme -pmn -pmh -vse -vsn -vsh etc. etc. for example. why have we changed the rules?

from earlier posts:

The split rules are if they have different levels and are quite a bit different from another game, then it gets split. Magical Drop 2 and 3's survival mode does not fit this description - they're basically
the same game. This is why Pat merged the sets together. GB9

or to quote another post, on why we don't do this by a game-by-game basis:

Basically, I think that unless picking a character TOTALLY changes the
game, we should leave everything as it is. If we start splitting up
games like King of Dragons, we'd have to do everything on a
case-by-case basis (whatever happened with lengthening the sports
games to full games anyway?)

-BBH, who still doesn't understand what warranted splitting up the
Magical Drop games by difficulty

[mahlemiut]

Differences between modes for the puzzle-dama/tokkae-dama games [puzldama, tokkae, tkmmpzdm], and this kinda goes for Twinbee Yahhoo too, although it's a completely different game.

Difficulty:
Practice - so damn easy than even I can finish it
Normal - Moderate difficulty. Not overly difficult if you are decent at this type of game.
Special - Much harder. Don't expect to finish it in this mode unless you're japanese or something

Levels:
Practice - Pre-set drop patterns for each stage, regardless of who the opponent is. 3 stages only.
Normal - Patterns pre-set for each opponent. 8 stages (I think).
Special - same as normal, although in tokkae, the balls set at the beginning of each stage differ between modes, except for stage 7, and probably 8 too.

Scoring:
Practice and Normal - relatively low scoring. Nowhere near enough to make the highscore tables on puzldama and tokkae.
Special: at least ten times the score you'd otherwise get in the other modes. Plus there's more bonuses at the end of the game, for time taken on each stage, plus a max chain bonus.

Actually, I wonder if practice mode should be split out for Twinbee Yahhoo too... the bell colour patterns are much easier in Practice mode, allowing for much easier 57300 bonuses.

[Q.T.Quazar]

But what you've spelled out is exactly the same as Magdrop2 + 3's harder mode. Harder difficulty, different patterns, while the beginner's survival mode had a very predictable set that was meant for high scoring by 'following the pattern' And both multi-vs. and multi-survival modes were axed. The only difference between the two is that puzzle-dama rewards the harder set with more points, whereas MD3 did not (at least to my knowledge). So this doesn't add up. Why score two splits for the same gameplay?

So this makes no sense to me whatsoever now. You're talking about splitting another game into a beginner mode, but you still haven't explained the significant difference that leads to puzzledama being split.

By your logic, the Magical Drop splits should be valid also--different patterns, different difficulty, different scoring--but same gameplay.

So I maintain my original point. I like these games too, but I don't see why they should be split.

[mahlemiut]

I'm not going to argue over Magical Drop 2 or 3, I don't know those games well enough.

From what I understand of that, the issue with Magical Drop is that games shouldn't be split on difficulty alone.

Pat is really the one that needs to explain exactly why Magical Drop 2/3 aren't split anymore.

[BBH]

yeah, I really agree with you on that, QT... it's sort of hypocritical to have splits for modes like that when the Magical Drop ones were abolished.

by another example, look at Rabio Lepus / Rabbit Punch... it has an "Expert" mode where the difficulty is jacked up but you get double points. There is no split for this game, so to get the highest score you have to play the harder version. It's still the same exact game with no gameplay differences. So why should the Puzzle-Dama games get split just because of this? If you want the highest score, play on Special.

and why does Twinbee Yahhoo need to be split, you don't play on anything BUT Practice, Barry :P

[Buttermaker]

I agree with Q.T. too.

If you want the highest score, play on Special.

That's what it comes down to in my opinion. The best player will get the highest score. No need for splits.

[***PL***]

Arrgh! This is why I hate splits...

I'm going to have to reconsider that the puzzle-dama & tokkae-dama special modes are really HARD difficult levels with similar gameplay. I don't care that scoring is increased. This is no different that several other games that have multipliers for the more difficult starting modes.

That said I don't see the need to split wh1 & wh2. It's up to you guys to figure out which starting mode or character gives you maximum points. It's part of figuring out the games!

Hopefully, this should make things consistant again.

[Q.T.Quazar]

fair enough.

if you like tokkae or taisen-dama, Barry, you should have a crack at Karian Cross.

cheers,
Q.T.Quazar

[mahlemiut]

Yeah, I've played Karian Cross.

I haven't uploaded anything for tkmmpzdm-sp as yet simply because it is that much harder. That said, I do suck ass at the puzzle-dama games, which just emphasises how crap I am.

As for tokkae, I do feel that I can play that decently (at least until some nutty japanese dude shows us all how it should be played), so I play that most of the time. I'd really like to finish it in normal mode sometime, but I don't see that happening in special mode anytime soon.

[mahlemiut]

Additional note - Taisen Tokkae-dama has 9 stages in normal mode.

Also note that I would never have finished it if special mode wasn't split out, there wouldn't have been any point in attempting it.

[Q.T.Quazar]

well, congratulations on completing it nonetheless!

cheers,
QCN