forums.marpirc.net

okay I may as well explain my reasoning. I may not be the biggest Hyper Sports enthusiast, but I spent some time digging through old threads here re-reading the discussions about it before I came to a decision.

I don't oppose it because of the NVRAM nuisance. I oppose it because it's an advantage that's gained from previous games played on the machine.

MARP policy has been pretty explicit about this - only the first credit counts, so all recordings are done as if the machine has just been turned on for the first time. Using NVRAM nullifies this, and insures that previous games had already been played before the recording. In the vast majority of games, this won't affect a thing gameplay-wise. But obviously these "mole bonuses" are reliant on previous world records being on the machine, which was a very stupid decision on Konami's part.

If we allow this, what's next? Consider some of the older Atari games that let you "warp" to a higher level at the beginning, like on Tempest or Black Widow. If a previous game has been played that reached a higher level than the available level choices, then the next player has the ability to warp farther (and get a higher starting score). This may not be exactly the same scenario (and I don't think this data is stored in NVRAM anyway), but it is of course another instance of being able to gain an advantage from a game already played on the machine. Hell, it's to my understanding that Twin Galaxies allows people to warp straight to World 8 on Crystal Castles after reaching that level on a previous game. That's obviously not going to be allowed at MARP.

I think this old post by Ben Jos Walbeehm sums up my thoughts about the TG rules pretty nicely.

Clearly this is not fair. And, clearly, not everyone has
access to a Hyper Sports machine on which the top 3 on every event is
very good. This makes the playing field uneven. This makes it possible
to break a world record while never performing better on any single
event than the previous world record holder. Since this "trick" of
getting higher scores is not available to everyone, it should not be
allowed. So, I repeat, in my opinion, the TG people should have
another look at, and revise the rules for Hyper Sports world records.

Even though evening out the playing field could be accomplished by establishing a "standard" NVRAM file, it still seems needlessly unnecessary to do all this just for trying to have a chance at "beating" the TG record. It's impossible to say whether or not all the established TG scores were done on even playing ground, and a MAME score that breaks the world record isn't going to be established as the official world record.

I really am sorry guys, I just don't find it crucial to permit all this extra hassle just for the sake of getting some extra points in a method that breaks one of the rules of MARP. As Barry said, if you make a great score using NVRAM, you can still link to it in the awesome replay thread.

LN2 wrote: Sure, it's "confusing" for members to use a nvram file...if they are too damn lazy to read the special rules and general rules etc.

They shouldn't play using MAME to start with then...cuz man it's so complicated!

I find this hilarious, since you were the same person that so vehemently opposed using NVRAM for the Street Fighter Alpha 3 splits because you thought that establishing special rules that permitted the use of a read-protected NVRAM file would be too confusing for "newbies".

BBH wrote:I find this hilarious, since you were the same person that so vehemently opposed using NVRAM for the Street Fighter Alpha 3 splits because you thought that establishing special rules that permitted the use of a read-protected NVRAM file would be too confusing for "newbies".

But since when do you "read all that shit"?

Weehawk wrote:

BBH wrote:I find this hilarious, since you were the same person that so vehemently opposed using NVRAM for the Street Fighter Alpha 3 splits because you thought that establishing special rules that permitted the use of a read-protected NVRAM file would be too confusing for "newbies".

:lol:

But since when do you "read all that shit"?

shush, don't make me look like a hypocrite too!

Just to clarify the editing scores thing:

Tommi's 447k plays back ok without his NVram - it doesn't desynch when run with the default file but obviously the score is different so can be edited.

My 464k doesn't play without my NVram but I have a 439k non-nv inp which I'd upload for the time being.

It is possible to beat the TG score without and someone will do it... just need to sort archery out and get a 5.94 on the first round pole or something And get to 45s swimming.

All my future recordings will be uploaded without - but I'll play occasionally with and when I beat KK's record I'll post about it on the board I guess.

dskys wrote:Just to clarify the editing scores thing:

Tommi's 447k plays back ok without his NVram - it doesn't desynch when run with the default file but obviously the score is different so can be edited.

My 464k doesn't play without my NVram but I have a 439k non-nv inp which I'd upload for the time being.

It is possible to beat the TG score without and someone will do it... just need to sort archery out and get a 5.94 on the first round pole or something And get to 45s swimming.

All my future recordings will be uploaded without - but I'll play occasionally with and when I beat KK's record I'll post about it on the board I guess.

For me, Tommi's plays back to 416,010 without the NVRAM.

BBH wrote:I don't oppose it because of the NVRAM nuisance. I oppose it because it's an advantage that's gained from previous games played on the machine.

how so? all you need to do is rewatch those replays and adjust/add any mole points from using whatever standard nvram file was created and change their score accordingly. It sounds like unlike what I stated previously, that sync of playing back replays for HS isn't affected by whether you use the nvram file they used or use no nvram file. I guess the game uses the same timing between events whether it registers and recognizes a new record or doesn't. Perhaps that is why on the pole vault the mole points can't be rewarded...cuz that would change the timing of the game...which Konami didn't want to do perhaps.

They aren't getting cheated out of anything by adjusting.

MARP policy has been pretty explicit about this - only the first credit counts, so all recordings are done as if the machine has just been turned on for the first time. Using NVRAM nullifies this, and insures that previous games had already been played before the recording.

That is flawed IMHO. The replay file is still just popping 1 credit and playing the 1 game...any additional games played in that replay would be ignored.

nvram doesn't change that at all...as long as it's not some odd continuation benefit.

In the vast majority of games, this won't affect a thing gameplay-wise. But obviously these "mole bonuses" are reliant on previous world records being on the machine, which was a very stupid decision on Konami's part.

Yes, I think all gamers would agree here. Why they coded it like that is silly....all of their games have that similar flaw. It's just more significant in HS.

If we allow this, what's next? Consider some of the older Atari games that let you "warp" to a higher level at the beginning, like on Tempest or Black Widow.

no...cuz to do that requires a "continuation" type game. The gameplay of that additional game is influenced by what was previously played. if nvram files are capable of being saved with this so on using it and popping that 1 credit and starting the game allows for that warp type stuff, then that type of nvram data certainly shouldn't be allowed.

It's clear (I thought) that for all games you aren't to benefit from a previous game played....meaning these warps or when the history of the gameplay would affect the actual gameplay.

Either way, there is still a very distinctive line drawn here that is separate from using nvram.

Using nvram only affects the HS score, it does not affect the gameplay at all. There is the difference.

Plus, we aren't talking for all games...just allow special rules to make an exception for it in certain cases where 67% have agreed to it....just like we do for special rules for any game.

This may not be exactly the same scenario (and I don't think this data is stored in NVRAM anyway),

Most of the time it isn't...but yes, the possibility exists that some game would have this.

However, again, it's all treated on a case-by-case basis with the "default" being no nvram file allowed.

Many seem to think if you allow HS that is opening a can of worms for all kinds of stuff. I don't think so. I think that can was always there anyway. That's what the special rules for games are mostly about....exceptions to the general rules of play or special settings for those specific games.

I actually think it makes a difference...although not as severe...for T-n-F as well. If you happen to tie the computer on the running events to get that 1000 bonus...but your time is good for a new record, I think you get ripped off the 1000.

Hell, it's to my understanding that Twin Galaxies allows people to warp straight to World 8 on Crystal Castles after reaching that level on a previous game. That's obviously not going to be allowed at MARP.

Currently this is allowed for the arcade track..but NOT allowed for the MAME track of Crystal Castles. I will be opening a discussion at TG on this though as I think it should be played under the same rules the arcade tracking is. The reason it isn't allowed for MAME tracking is simply because Mark Longridge wanted all replay files to just show 1 game played....versus going through the first "dummy" game to then see the real game.

It's not possible to compete with the arcade record scores on Crystal Castles under the TG-MAME rules. You could have the best player ever set an awesome score using MAME and it would generally be ignored and viewed as inferior to the arcade scores. Is that fair?

HS also sets this as a precendent IMHO...since HS-arcade scores are certainly with high heights set for the pole vault before that record game was started.

Ben wrote:Clearly this is not fair. And, clearly, not everyone has
access to a Hyper Sports machine on which the top 3 on every event is
very good. This makes the playing field uneven.

Yes, this is true....it's not 100% "even"...but each game likely had at least 5.93s or 5.94s as the height records.

Any gamer out to set a world record would easily understand they needed to play the game many times to set high height records first BEFORE going for the record.

Each gamer has that same opportunity...so in that sense it is even.

Finally...for Crystal Castles, the world record score actually isn't from using a continuation tunnel to warp to level 8. The record plays 1 game...to level 2...kills off his men..then starts a new game...warping to level 2....and playing all out from there.

This allows for a higher potential score for the true masters of the game versus using the continuation tunnel warp to level 8.

Either way, it's something not possible without allowing the continue tunnel be used.

LN2 wrote:Using nvram only affects the HS score, it does not affect the gameplay at all.

Only affecting score is hardly "extraordinary circumstances" as the rules page used to say - which was changed because it was clear that people has differing ideas on just what "extraordinary circumstances" are. The change was only made to make it even more clear.

LN2 makes an interesting point that he is discussing HS NV here because that is where the HS players are.

If the TG record is to be broken, it follows from that that the record will be broken by someone here.

The ruling means that however possible in theory it is, it is now unlikely in practice.

The ruling doesn't only effect the HS score. It affects the chances of someone beating the TG record. And records are there to be broken.

It's just going round in circles and what's done is done. It is the wrong decision, I'm sure of that, but it's made and we have to get on with it.

So much to say, but those who play know what the score is (heh) so it's pointless now.

dskys wrote:If the TG record is to be broken, it follows from that that the record will be broken by someone here.

The ruling means that however possible in theory it is, it is now unlikely in practice.

Why? Like I said before, there is a forum thread specifically for great non-MARP inps. There is no reason why anyone cannot post an NV-using inp there.

I thought the thread was for inps *here* you might not watch cos you don't play the game so fair point.

Of course SOME people will think it is the wrong way to disallow NVRAM in Hypersports. If all people agree we would not have any wars, right?

Anyway, look at it this way:

All people are playing on the same level now too. The only difference is the lower score. WHY should a game allow NVRAM just to get the score higher? Because TG will allow it? Just because Kelly has an unbeatable score without it? Because some people WANT a higher score? Sorry, but that is not enough for me to allow it in my opinion.

If someone wants to compete and try to beat the TG mame (or arcade) record, use TG rules and upload it there! And after that go ahead and do the same at MARP on the MARP rules! I can't really understand what's wrong with that way of doing it...MARP is MARP and you will earn the same kind of competition here amongst the players with or without NVRAM.

It seems to me that most of the guys here at MARP that loves Hypersports (me included by I suck on it!) DO have the stamina to play more than ONE game... why not make one for MARP and the other for TG? I mean some games at MARP does have splits or clones and people are uploading on them anyway.

Let me give an example:

On Planetquack.com they have a part of the site dedicated to speed runs on all kinds of console games/pc games. Many players that uploads videos there also dwells on the TG site and participate there too. Sometimes the rules for recording is different on these communities. Planet quake might accept some things that TG doesn’t and the other way around. So far I have not seen any argument about that on any of these sites. They just accept that it is two different kinds of communities and they upload under different rules to both of them sometimes. Think about that, because even if TG and MARP share many players and rules, we ARE two separate communities with different rules and different people.

We must have certain rules at MARP. Some people will NOT like some of them.. Heck, I don't like all of the rules myself! The thing is that if people are to interpret the "extraordinary circumstances" to what they want, we will end up in endless discussions and interpretations of what they really mean... Hence me trying to put the hard work on us editors and make the job instead..

We all have decided that we do it on a case to case basis and take our time and read all the threads and try to gather all the knowledge we can to make it a fair vote/discussion. We are all going to be neutral and ignore if we like the game or not.

The ONLY thing that is important is the game and how the best settings is according to the rules. Feel free to complain about the editors decision about a certain game, but don't except us to listen to things like "Hey, I still want the game to be allowed" or "You did the wrong thing!" etc. What I mean is that if we make the wrong decision, (which of course can happen), we want to know that! But please do have valid points according to the MARP rules.

So if anyone has any valid points according to the MARP rules regarding Hypersports, please tell us. So far I have not seen any.

Firstly, if a user felt that the wrong decision had been made, and if over a hundred posts advocating the opposite (in the main) have been made then said user shouldn't have to provide a more valid reason than that.

Anyone can count themselves as a player of Hyper Sports. Some people love the game but suck at it. The ruling doesn't affect them at all.

It does affect the good players of the game.

It is valid to say that if a good player were to strongly disagree with the new ruling then it would put a whole different light on things. But the good players agree that the game should be played in the spirit of the arcade. That isn't allowed because of this ruling. That is the only arguement that counts. The editors here may not like the fact, but despite all the inps for the game the top three players are the only truly good players of it.

It's like having a general election where the people that actively support one particular party aren't allowed to vote for them because they're input is biased. Of course that doesn't happen - it's fatuous.

I appreciate that the editors here have to strike a balance for thousands of games, but at the end of the day, allowing three players to compete at a level which THEY agree to be fair and in the spirit of the game should be enough. No one else at ALL is affected here. New players will use NV for the game, old players with poorer scores may be inclined to play again with the prospect of climbing the leaderboard.

The point being that by and large the vote affects three players only - no one else gives a damn other than that 'nvram is banned here come what may people' don't take the time, have the inclination or desire to actually see WHY those three want it a certain way. It doesn't change anything else about MARP, its stance or the way 99.99999% of games here are played, ruled and judged.

It's not like there are hundreds of inps for the game. It's not like any scores outside the top three are close enough to decide that NV has given an unfair advantage to those above them. With all due respect, those scores do not matter because with or without NV they are simply NOT GOOD ENOUGH TO CHALLENGE THE TOP THREE (and ACTIVE) PLAYERS.

It is the wrong decision, and again, with respect, if you REALLY can't see that then you should take a step back and look at it again.

Can we please end this discussion now?

The rules of MARP regarding Hyper Sports have been laid out.

If one wants to challenge the TG WR, well then go find a HS machine( and a video camera...). If one wants to submit a TG-MAME score, well then go ahead.

But I'm sure there is a place at MARP where one can upload a 538k+ score, just so other folks can see. But not at regular listings.


Cheers,

AL

Youre right - as I said, it's going round in circles.

Hyper Sports machine from ArcadeWarehouse is £395+vat - refurbed with new decals so like new.

538k is such a crappy record too hehe j/k