I am proposing to the RC, Pat, that all mahjongg/poker games be placed in the archives (*).
<p>
The issues, as I see them, are:
<p>
1) Are these games worthy of watching/learning? Is there value in having them as a part of points competition? If so, what do they test - reflexes, skill, planning, etc.?
<p>
2) Are these really arcade games, in anyhting beyond the literal sense? Some versions of pachinko could be considered arcade games, but require far more luck than skill...
<p>
3) Are these games that will attain, at a point, higher scores only due to luck, and not due to a player's skill?
<p>
After debate, I would ask Pat to propose a vote on this issue.
<p>
Thank-you all.
Q.T.Quazar
--
qan@home.com
Proposal to move all mahjongg/poker games to archives
Moderator: Chad
-
Brian McLean
1) The most exciting thing I could imagine happening while watching a
mahjong recording would be seeing a powerful hand come together.
There's as much strategy in the game as you'd find in gin rummy,
basically, so any wild twists in the game would come from luck.
<p>
2) There's as much skill involved in playing mahjong as there would
be in playing poker, or blackjack, or what have you. It's still
debatable whether it's more luck than anything, though, because just
like in poker, your strategy will change depending on the opponent's
situation. My feeling is that you're at the mercy of the tiles no
matter what you do, so it boils down to luck more often than not. So
many mahjong games end with both parties looking for one single tile
they need to complete their hand.
<p>
3) See 2.
<p>
I'm with Hisa on this issue. Mahjong games are nice to look at the
naked chicks. The naughtier the better, I say. But can you imagine a
mahjong video game competition? I can hear the commentary now. 'And
he discards the white dragon! What an incredible gambit!' No. I'm
all for playing those games in my spare time, and I do, but I don't
see what place they have in the annals of high score history.
<p>
Cheers,
Brian
--
bmclean84@hotmail.com
mahjong recording would be seeing a powerful hand come together.
There's as much strategy in the game as you'd find in gin rummy,
basically, so any wild twists in the game would come from luck.
<p>
2) There's as much skill involved in playing mahjong as there would
be in playing poker, or blackjack, or what have you. It's still
debatable whether it's more luck than anything, though, because just
like in poker, your strategy will change depending on the opponent's
situation. My feeling is that you're at the mercy of the tiles no
matter what you do, so it boils down to luck more often than not. So
many mahjong games end with both parties looking for one single tile
they need to complete their hand.
<p>
3) See 2.
<p>
I'm with Hisa on this issue. Mahjong games are nice to look at the
naked chicks. The naughtier the better, I say. But can you imagine a
mahjong video game competition? I can hear the commentary now. 'And
he discards the white dragon! What an incredible gambit!' No.
I'm all for playing those games in my spare time, and I do, but I don't
see what place they have in the annals of high score history.
<p>
Cheers,
Brian
--
bmclean84@hotmail.com
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Gameboy9
Sorry QT... this one is obvious for me. If it was an arcade game and
MAME emulates it in the most recent version - it counts here -
wheater I like it or not. This one I definatly know there's quite a
bit of skill, and, yes, a good bit of luck - but frankly, every
single arcade game seems to have some bit of luck involved.
<p>
Therefore, I will vote against the motion when the time comes... GB9
--
goldengameboy@yahoo.com
MAME emulates it in the most recent version - it counts here -
wheater I like it or not. This one I definatly know there's quite a
bit of skill, and, yes, a good bit of luck - but frankly, every
single arcade game seems to have some bit of luck involved.
<p>
Therefore, I will vote against the motion when the time comes... GB9
--
goldengameboy@yahoo.com
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Vero
I hate shooting games but I don't ask them to be deleted because I
know players love that.
On the contrary, I have a lot of fun with games like mahjong, poker
ladies or shanghai.
Cutie, if you don't want any girl to play on marp, just delete all
games but streetfighters ...
<p>
Vero.
--
a.veronique@free.fr
know players love that.
On the contrary, I have a lot of fun with games like mahjong, poker
ladies or shanghai.
Cutie, if you don't want any girl to play on marp, just delete all
games but streetfighters ...
<p>
Vero.
--
a.veronique@free.fr
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Pat
As much as I'd love to get rid of these, I simply can't. A vote
would be fruitless, much like trying eliminate clones from the LB
scoring. Perhaps another reason to have an alternate LB that
measures true skill???
--
laffaye@mail.com
would be fruitless, much like trying eliminate clones from the LB
scoring.
Perhaps another reason to have an alternate LB that measures true skill???
--
laffaye@mail.com
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Q.T.Quazar
I'm sorry Pat, but I've completely missed your logic. A vote would be
fruitless because...? I thought that was the point of your position.
--
qan@home.com
fruitless because...? I thought that was the point of your position.
--
qan@home.com
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Pat
What you are asking me to propose is to remove all LB points from
anyone that ever submitted INPs for mahjongg/poker type games. Well
my point is that I just had a vote to reduce/eliminate LB points from
clones and the idea was not well received. I am quite certain a
similar reaction would occur if these 50+ games, which you
suggest are not arcade type games, were to be archived and not
counted. The current LB system does not measure true skill because
scoring is mainly based on total number of INPs and submissions from
these "easy", low-skill games. Archiving is not the correct solution.
--
laffaye@mail.com
anyone that ever submitted INPs for mahjongg/poker type games. Well
my point is that I just had a vote to reduce/eliminate LB points from
clones and the idea was not well received. I am quite certain a
similar reaction would occur if these 50+ games, which you
suggest are not arcade type games, were to be archived and not
counted. The current LB system does not measure true skill because
scoring is mainly based on total number of INPs and submissions from
these "easy", low-skill games. Archiving is not the correct solution.
--
laffaye@mail.com
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Q.T.Quazar
Your logic escapes me, Pat. The vote you proposed was for all games,
all clones, and the vote was about scoring methodology. I was
proposing a vote on a specific type of game, for all games of that
type -- clones and originals (although to be honest, I don't think
there's any mahjongg clones, and few poker ones, so it isn't even
remotely similar to the first vote)
<p>
If you have a real reason not to want to propose the vote, like the
lack of debate on this post so far, so be it. Otherwise I request
again that you post a vote, and that gb9 links it to the news page. If
I'm being unreasonable with this request, or missing the point, then
let other MARPers speak up, but I've studied logic for years and I
can't see where your synthesis is coming from.
--
qan@home.com
all clones, and the vote was about scoring methodology. I was
proposing a vote on a specific type of game, for all games of that
type -- clones and originals (although to be honest, I don't think
there's any mahjongg clones, and few poker ones, so it isn't even
remotely similar to the first vote)
<p>
If you have a real reason not to want to propose the vote, like the
lack of debate on this post so far, so be it. Otherwise I request
again that you post a vote, and that gb9 links it to the news page. If
I'm being unreasonable with this request, or missing the point, then
let other MARPers speak up, but I've studied logic for years and I
can't see where your synthesis is coming from.
--
qan@home.com
-
Phil
Well, as a mathematician, I also studied logic during years,
and Pat's logic sounds clear to me : mahjong IS a game
and deserves his place on marp ; I know the problem is that
there is a lot of mahjongs (like there is a lot of streetfighters
or wonderboy) and it's not just that someone mastering mahjong
or sf can earn 2000 LB pts when someone mastering a game with
no clone (like anteater!) only earn 100 LB pts
<p>
The only solution to avoid that was to "merge" pts for similar games
(very good idea by Pat)
but this was unanimously and recently rejected by quite all marpers
(except me and maybe an other one, don't remember)
<p>
So what remains ? the fact that we keep all clones ; there is nothing
else to vote : archiving a type of game would amount to make a
segregation (why mahjong ?
why not soukobdx ? or puzlclub ? or puzznic ? or shanghai ?
no skill, only reflexion ... the list is long and debates would be
endless)
<p>
Sorry, QT, there is not only skill games in arcade ; "segregation
is the way to chaos" (don't remember whose sentence it is) and don't
forget that this is this type of "choices" which lead you out off
rules coordinator chair ;
if you don't like mahjong , very simple : don't play it !!!
<p>
Phil
--
plamat@club-internet.fr
and Pat's logic sounds clear to me : mahjong IS a game
and deserves his place on marp ; I know the problem is that
there is a lot of mahjongs (like there is a lot of streetfighters
or wonderboy) and it's not just that someone mastering mahjong
or sf can earn 2000 LB pts when someone mastering a game with
no clone (like anteater!) only earn 100 LB pts
<p>
The only solution to avoid that was to "merge" pts for similar games
(very good idea by Pat)
but this was unanimously and recently rejected by quite all marpers
(except me and maybe an other one, don't remember)
<p>
So what remains ? the fact that we keep all clones ; there is nothing
else to vote : archiving a type of game would amount to make a
segregation (why mahjong ?
why not soukobdx ? or puzlclub ? or puzznic ? or shanghai ?
no skill, only reflexion ... the list is long and debates would be
endless)
<p>
Sorry, QT, there is not only skill games in arcade ; "segregation
is the way to chaos" (don't remember whose sentence it is) and don't
forget that this is this type of "choices" which lead you out off
rules coordinator chair ;
if you don't like mahjong , very simple : don't play it !!!
<p>
Phil
--
plamat@club-internet.fr
-
Q.T.Quazar
The two statements are not equivalent. A might imply B, but is
not equivalent to, simple as that. While the vote may have a
simliarity, it deals with a different universal qualifier than Pat's.
<p>
And I'm not taking sides, although you already know how I'm voting. I
like real mahjongg, and I don'tmind the arcade mahjongg, i just don't
think it or poker belong on MARP, for reasons listed in the first
post. This is just a debate post and a request for a vote, that's all.
--
qan@home.com
not equivalent to, simple as that. While the vote may have a
simliarity, it deals with a different universal qualifier than Pat's.
<p>
And I'm not taking sides, although you already know how I'm voting. I
like real mahjongg, and I don'tmind the arcade mahjongg, i just don't
think it or poker belong on MARP, for reasons listed in the first
post. This is just a debate post and a request for a vote, that's all.
--
qan@home.com
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Q.T.Quazar
How old are you Tommi? 30-something? Learn to debate like a civilized
ADULT, please.<p>
-Q.T.Quazar
--
qan@home.com
ADULT, please.<p>
-Q.T.Quazar
--
qan@home.com