I move that we ADD a leaderboard

Gameboy9 · Post by **Gameboy9** » Thu Dec 09, 1999 12:30 pm

I move that we ADD a leaderboard(not wipe out the old one, and replace a new one) where only MAME 35 TG 3 entries will be allowed. That way, hopefully everyone will be happy. I vote yes to this motion. We should be EXTREMELY strict with this new leaderboard. Examples include...


- No Autofire allowed(yes... we can detect this!)



- No run like hell cheats



- No recordings less than 90 % framerate



- All confirmers should be allowed to edit other scores for cheating or incorrectly uploaded scores.



Again, this is a new leaderboard - with this motion, you would still have the old leaderboard in addition with this one.



Anything else I should have up there? Thanks for reading - I have been gypped of points at least four times(probably more)(I know some have been gypped a lot more than that), and this cheating needs to stop NOW! This is one step forward for a cheatless MARP!

--
goldengameboy@yahoo.com

Pat · Post by **Pat** » Thu Dec 09, 1999 12:30 pm

I would like to add the following:


- only original romsets; no clones whatsoever
- must use TGTS or default settings
- no points leeching / unethical play
- percentage based scoring with no "penalty"
- previously recorded INPs from MAME 0.34 FINAL should be accepted

--
laffaye@ibm.net

Gameboy9 · Post by **Gameboy9** » Thu Dec 09, 1999 12:30 pm

I can agree with everything except the last one. Why? Because that
would allow the very thing we're trying to defeat - slow computer
cheating. That's what we're trying to get rid of, right?

--
goldengameboy@yahoo.com

Gameboy9 · Post by **Gameboy9** » Thu Dec 09, 1999 12:30 pm

Phil Lamat reminded me of one more thing:(via his recent pong
recording)



- ABSOLUTLY POSITIVELY NO EASY-TO-TIE GAMES!!!!!



No pong, no checkmate, no dominos, no comotion, no off-the-wall sente
version, none of that.



also...



- All recordings' scores will be done on the first credit. Guess
who's responsible for that rule? Phil Lamat again - but this time,
it's his pontoon recording.



- Finally, no broken games should have a score. Self-Explanatory.

--
goldengameboy@yahoo.com

Pat · Post by **Pat** » Thu Dec 09, 1999 12:30 pm

Yea, you're right. Might as well start with a clean slate. Perhaps
when MAME 0.36 FINAL comes out, Mark can update his EXE to include
all the latest games. At that point, recording submissions could
begin.

--
laffaye@ibm.net

Chris Parsley · Post by **Chris Parsley** » Thu Dec 09, 1999 12:30 pm

I must definately say no.
A) The legal (private version/public (release source code)) hasn't
been worked out yet with Nicola.
B) TGMame hasn't been tested enough to know whether or not it is still
with the same slowdown problems.
C) It negates all previous work done.
D) Sport games usually need more than one credit to play correctly.

--
cparsley1@hotmail.com

Dave Kaupp · Post by **Dave Kaupp** » Thu Dec 09, 1999 12:30 pm

I added a new vote topic for this at http://wintermute.nu/poll/


The ip address of the voters are logged (so no multi voting

, they
can be vewied here http://wintermute.nu/poll/printdb.php3

--
info@kaupp.cx

Chad · Post by **Chad** » Thu Dec 09, 1999 12:30 pm

Makesure we have a document of all the games we are going to "ban"
from the new leaderbaord so that if questions are asked we can give
the answer as the url of banned games (include Angry's Banned
techniques and the recent banned games vote.)



I must also add that games that can not be played back by a confirmer
that attempts to confirm the score should not contribute a score to
the leaderboard. This might call for a little implimentation of a
confirmed state. Since someone might be able to play it back even if
the first confirmer isn't able to.



When a game is attempted to be confirmed, and all options are
exhausted to get it to playback, the confirmer should put the
recording/entry in a unplaybackable state, where it's still there for
other confirmers to attempt to play it back, but doesn't contribute a
score.



It might be usefull to store in the confirmed state implimentation of
who confirmed or unplayabacked a recording, so confirmers can see that
they themselves haven't yet tried to playback a recording (and they
should try it) even though it says it hasn't been playedback yet.



Restating what CP said: We must be wary that the tgmame version is
hack proof before we go on the path, but tg3mame looks pretty
reasonable. We also must be wary of the mame open source rules. But
i believe releasing the source without encryption routines/calls or at
least different ones seems reasonable enough, since no one should be
attempting to change the encryption like they would be attempting to
change a driver routine.

--
churritz@cts.com

Dave Kaupp · Post by **Dave Kaupp** » Thu Dec 09, 1999 12:30 pm

I'm also wondering if scores that are considered sub-standard allowed
to be posted to the new board?

--
info@kaupp.cx

phil · Post by **phil** » Thu Dec 09, 1999 12:30 pm

Response to Gameboy attacks : your message stinks segregation


PONG : why do you forget to speak about GK who submitted a score on
pong 2 days before me ? maybe you're afraid of mentioning one of the 2
best and most respected players on MARP and prefer the coward
behaviour of joining the pack of hounds against me
Anyway there is an entry for pong so I entered a score , that 's all
(Game Guru has just entered a 6 on checkmat, but I think you won't
attack him)



PONTOON : why do you forget to speak about Ray Atkinson who also used
several tries on this game (and the contrary would be a stupid waste
of time) ?
Anyway I don't know where is the problem, there is no rule about this
"first credit" request I've never heard about, and other players
-guess what- did the same before me :
Why do you forget to speak about Stig Remnes ' 378170 on combascb made
with 4 games ? Why do you forget JoustGod's 659 on barrier made with
2 games ? etc.....



SCORES ON NON-WORKING GAMES : why do you forget to speak about your
own score on dday ????????????



So now just shut up and forget me

--
plamat@club-internet.fr

Cicca · Post by **Cicca** » Fri Dec 10, 1999 12:30 pm

gb9 idea of a TG only leaderboard is cool, but I don't want the old,
full one, to be removed.
I just hope Zwaxy will have the time to implement it.



I do agree with all the anti-cheating rules for this LB, benned games
liss and so on.....just wonder what gb9 means with "broken games": if
he means "games_that_don't_playback", well, of course; but if he
means "games_that_a_skilled_player_could_play_indefinitely" (e.g.
BeeJay at Gyruss, me at Crash, etc), I won't agree.



To Chad: time ago I proposed the idea of a "supervisoring authority"
in charge of checking and deleting non valid recordings, and I found
many people agreeing with it: this should be in charge of the
ordinary LB too (the idea was born for that, at the time). If Zwaxy
will agree , I here suggest Pat as "MARP major judge" (of course, if
Pat agrees too

. So far, also Lamat's will stop howling (he's
right, anyway).



Cicca

--
cicca@writeme.com

Gameboy9 · Post by **Gameboy9** » Fri Dec 10, 1999 12:30 pm

I second Cicca's motion - Pat's quite good at making score
corrections for us at the tournament, I think he can do the same in
the regular MARP. Now I understand that Pat would need to make a
final decision on this matter... but still - I think he's a good
candidate.

--
goldengameboy@yahoo.com

Pat · Post by **Pat** » Fri Dec 10, 1999 12:30 pm

The biggest challenge that I see in all of this is ensuring that
proper settings are being used. For example, I don't think it would
be enough to say "All games can use default settings!" There are way
too many that are extremely easy on default settings. That's the
whole point behind Twin Galaxies Tournament Settings (TGTS). Who's
got time for 24 hour marathons when there's a boatload of games to
play!!



It appears as though we'd have to look at all valid MAME games and
determine what the settings should be. Over the past 15+ years,
Walter Day has compiled a lot of TG settings, but there are still a
great number of games that have no standards. Now we could start out
with defaults and then refine the settings as we learn more about the
newer games. This information would have to be posted and kept
up-to-date. Mark and Walter already have a much of this information
readily available.



Verifying TGTS/Default settings is a major problem right now.
Unfortuately, I don't think Mark's TG3 handles this because every game
has a different "signature". For tourneys I use a custom program to
check each recording. We would need someone to maintain this same
program. Fortunately, updates would only occur twice a year, as that
is basically the release schedule for MAME FINALS (currently every 6
months as it would be for TG MAME).



Most importantly we have to get Zwaxy's blessing! After all, this is
his site and he may not want to offer a separate TGTS leaderboard.
This idea is a good one but needs some careful planning. I'd like to
see it better speced out--perhaps have a planning commitee of 3
volunteers. The LB itself would have to be somewhat policed by the
players themselves, such as now where respected players have MARP
confirmation privledges. That said, if we can get though all these
issues, I'd accept the position of MARP Judge.

--
laffaye@ibm.net