New TG MAME

Mark Longridge · Post by **Mark Longridge** » Sat Oct 30, 1999 12:30 pm

I now have a preliminary version of MAME 35 Final, where the
major flaw I referred to is now impossible to do. The file format
of the INP file has been alterred, the INP files created with
this version will only playback with this version.



So Chris, I'll email you this version if you like. Please refer
to this version as MAME 35 TG version, or 35TG if you like...
if you could add this to your script that would be nice

I'd like to see Ben Jos play this version for Donkey Kong, and
German to play Frogger also, only to show the nay-sayers that
their games were for real. I'd also like to see Phil Lamat play
League Bowling and get a perfect game with this version...
only to confirm their great skills are for real.



I'll set up a link to my web page tonight with the new MAME35TG
version. This is only the beginning, later on I'll add a zip
file with all the cfg files set to TG settings.



Mark

--
cubeman@iname.com

BeeJay · Post by **BeeJay** » Sat Oct 30, 1999 12:30 pm

Good to see Mark and now perhaps this version could be approved, for
those who will be participating, for use in T2. Naturally Mame32
0.35 Final for those who have trouble running the DOS version of Mame
such as I do on my Windows NT at work - only when I'm on my lunch
break naturally !!!!! ;-p



Good luck to all T2 participants and remember it's not only about
winning it's also about having fun and building from other peoples
playing styles to achieve new PB's on all these games. Everyone who
achieves PB's is a winner in their own right if not the winner of the
tournament.



BeeJay.

--
brianjohnstone@cardinal.co.nz

Ben Jos Walbeehm · Post by **Ben Jos Walbeehm** » Sat Oct 30, 1999 12:30 pm

I actually used MAME32 .35 final (the Windows version, which doesn't
have the flaw) for my Donkey Kong recording, but I'd be happy to make
a recording using the version you just made if you want me to. What's
the minimum score I should get?

A minor point regarding the name for your version: The latest
readme.txt (for 36b8) states:



(Start of quote)
VII. Derivative Works
---------------------
Derivative works are allowed (provided source code is available), but
discouraged: MAME is a project continuously evolving, and you should,
in your best interest, submit your contributions to the development
team, so that they are integrated in the main distribution.



There are a certain number of drivers in the source which are disabled
in the official distribution. Enabling them is NOT considered a
derivative work, and distribution of executables with those drivers
enabled is strictly forbidden.



If you make a derivative work, you are not allowed to call it MAME.
You must use a different name to make clear that it isn't an official
distribution from the MAME team.
(End of quote)



Ben Jos.

--
walbeehm@walbeehm.com

Ben Jos Walbeehm · Post by **Ben Jos Walbeehm** » Sat Oct 30, 1999 12:30 pm

Actually, I just re-read the quote and you may have a problem
because of the "(provided the source code is available)" part...



Ben Jos.

--
walbeehm@walbeehm.com

Mark Longridge · Post by **Mark Longridge** » Sat Oct 30, 1999 12:30 pm

Yes, of course, and I knew you would see that immediately.
But I think this is a special case... now if anyone thinks
*I'M* cheating the only way I can prove myself is inviting all the
players down to Funspot in New Hampshire to watch me play!



But as for the MAME aggrement about releasing the source code,
I think this is a worthy exception, and also the new clause with
"derivative works" is new to MAME368.



Don't you think it's better if the oportunity to cheat is decreased
as much as possible? This is good way to do it.



Mark

--
cubeman@iname.com

Ben Jos Walbeehm · Post by **Ben Jos Walbeehm** » Sat Oct 30, 1999 12:30 pm

OK. No problem. I'll record a game using the version you created. I
already downloaded it, and I noticed that some of the sound is
missing (most notably, Mario's "quacking" noise when he walks), but
that shouldn't matter. I just hope you're not expecting me to score
893400 or even more. And I'll try to squeeze it in soon, but I can't
promise anything since the MARP tournament is starting in less than a
day. I had not planned on playing any Donkey Kong during that
tournament, EXCEPT if someone were to beat any of my CK/DK scores on
MARP. So I can't guarantee that I'll send you anything soon, but I'll
try.



As for the MAME agreement, I personally have no problem at all with
you keeping the source code for yourself, but maybe it's a good idea
if you at least let the MAME team know about it. And, yes, I fully
agree with you that a special version of MAME that is more cheat-proof
than the regular version is a valuable asset.



Ben Jos.

--
walbeehm@walbeehm.com

Dave Kaupp · Post by **Dave Kaupp** » Sat Oct 30, 1999 12:30 pm

I think derivative work pertains to a new project based on the mame
code. Mess for instance.



I think this exception could fall under modifying for personnel use.
Unless its being distributed as an official marp version, then the
source may have to be released.

--
info@kaupp.cx

Aquatarkus · Post by **Aquatarkus** » Sun Oct 31, 1999 12:30 pm

I can't come up with any suggestions that aren't illegal, impossible,
and/or downright disrespectful on how to get the need for MAMETG to
NOT be open source across to the MAME Team.



Aqua

--
aquatarkus@digicron.com

Dave Kaupp · Post by **Dave Kaupp** » Sun Oct 31, 1999 12:30 pm

There is also no way to verify someone hasn't compiled there own
version of mame34 with the re-playback hack put in. Nor if they played
it on an ultraslow machine or other methods of cheating.



The only way I can think of truely verifying a recording is using a
camcorder.

--
info@kaupp.cx

Mark Longridge · Post by **Mark Longridge** » Sun Oct 31, 1999 12:30 pm

Aqua: I don't think there is any point in releasing the source for
this "TG" version of MAME35 final. All I changed was a few lines
of code which makes cheating a lot less likely, and I modified the
INP file format a bit. If I distribute the source of this minor
patch then the whole point of patching the source is negated, and
the ability to EASILY cheat is once again a problem.



Dave Kaupp: Sure, you could recompile mame34 and cheat your brains
out... but with mame35tg you can't do it and you don't know what
I changed in the inp file format to make it incompatible with
ALL other versions of MAME. Now it's pretty tough to cheat, which
is the point of the exercise. May as well make cheating as difficult
as possible, don't you think?



Mark

--
cubeman@iname.com

Dave Kaupp · Post by **Dave Kaupp** » Sun Oct 31, 1999 12:30 pm

I agree that a MARP or a TG version of Mame is a good thing, it
inhibits some of the flaws in Mame that someone could use to
manipulate a recording.



I'm just pointing out that if someone wants to cheat, they will find
a way to cheat.



The only way to truly verify a recording is by visual inspection,
everything else is just a deterrent.

--
info@kaupp.cx

Gameboy9 · Post by **Gameboy9** » Sun Oct 31, 1999 12:30 pm

Well you can nearly guarantee that MAME32 35 FINAL or TG MAME 35 FINAL
or however you want to call it will be the version we use in the next
tournament. I think all of us who are honest players at least
appreciate what you have done Mark, thanks

Oh yeah... and if the MAMEDEV team gives you any problems with that
source code junk, I have a great feeling that quite a few of us,
including myself, will step up and defend.

--
goldengameboy@yahoo.com

Pat · Post by **Pat** » Sun Oct 31, 1999 12:30 pm

Mark, thanks for taking the initiative and coming up with a tourney
version of MAME! As I told you last week, working with the MAME
development team is extermely challenging as they are unresponsive to
excellent suggestions from MAME users. They really need to start
paying attention more to the program itself rather than just trying to
crank more games out.



Anyway, since you did not mention this, I was wondering if you
addressed my (and yours too!) #2 concern which is the infamous PAUSE
key. I'm hoping that your final version disables this feature since
we'd want the tourney version to closely mimic and emulate the way
actual machines operate in an arcade setting.

--
laffaye@ibm.net

Chad · Post by **Chad** » Sun Oct 31, 1999 12:30 pm

First I'm happy someone else besides me is trying to make a secure
mame, thanks Mark for starting the ball rolling.



Now, You can't fault the MAME team at all for not responding to the
MARP people, their job is NOT to serve our desires. I think they
worry about and improve the program tons more than we can ever thank
them for. This particular problem we face (to debunk forged inp
files) is an incredibly difficult problem in cryptology, and it is our
communities responsibility to make right.



For our problem, you need to pass information between a program run by
user A through to user B (the inp authority) with out user A knowing
what the program is doing. A virtual impossiblity since A can see
everything the program consists of since it must exists on A's hard
drive. I am hopeing Mark has thought of everything in his version
because I will try to hack out his modification of the inp file to see
if anyone else can too (i'm pretty lame at hacking so if i can do it
anyone else could.)



I encourage others (better than me) to attempt to cheat with Marks
program, and if they are successful in doing so mail him how they did
it. Alhtough, you can see i don't have faith that Mark's first
version will be hack proof, I indeed hope we can eventually make
something that no one can cheat with.

--
churritz@cts.com

Cicca · Post by **Cicca** » Tue Nov 02, 1999 12:30 pm

I have to sincerely thank Mark for providing this "Competition
Release" of Mame !!! (BTW, where's the URL !?!?)

As Pat suggested, if the PAUSE key could be desabled, at least while
recording, well....the job will be complete ...



Thanx again, Mark.



Cicca

--
cicca@writeme.com