***FINAL VOTE ON BANNING GAMES - ALL MARP COMPETITORS PLEASE

Q.T.Quazar · Post by **Q.T.Quazar** » Sun Sep 19, 1999 12:30 pm

So here we are. This list is essentially the culmination of two months of debate on this topic, and hopefully we can now put the issue to rest for a while. The following games have been discussed in open forum for 10 days, and everyone that wished to has had the chance to voice their opinion. With the direct collaboration of gameboy, skito, Dave, and myself, we now present the FINAL list to you of QUESTIONABLE GAMES for this and all prior beta cycles. Every new beta cycle the games on this list will be re-examined and re-evaluated.
PLEASE TAKE THE TIME TO PLACE A SIMPLE YES OR NO VOTE ON EACH OF THESE GAMES. THEY HAVE BEEN ORDERED BY PROBLEM FOR YOUR CONVENIENCE. IF THIS VOTE DOES NOT REACH A SUITABLE CONCLUSION, BE IT PASS OR FAIL, THEN WE WILL BE BACK WHERE WE STARTED TWO MONTHS AGO, AND NOTHING WILL BE RESOLVED. THERE HAS BEEN A LOT OF FLAMING AND GENERAL BAD FEELING AT MARP OVER THIS TOPIC. FOR THE SAKE OF A FRIENDLIER, MORE UNITED MARP, AND AN EASIER JOB FOR ZWAXY, PLEASE CAST YOUR VOTE SO THAT WE CAN BURY THIS ISSUE AND RETURN TO WHAT WE CAME HERE FOR--TO PLAY.



If anything, ANYTHING is unclear, please e-mail me at qan@home.com or skito at churritz@cts.com before casting your vote. Thank you for your patience. Below there is a list explaining the terms used in this posting.



Notes:



If there are scores, it indicates that there is currently a massive tie for the game.



The parentheses indicate the problem with the game, so you can decide to vote to keep or ban it temporarily, or ban it permanently.



'BROKEN' means that the game is broken to the point of being unplayable. Such criteria would be an invisible character, no collision detection, random scoring problems, no/severely warped player control, etc.



Games listed as 'TOO EASY' are games which are too easy to reach a maximum score at on a single credit, or which repeat themselves to the point where it is overly easy to get a maximum score (no, we're not talking about Pac-Man here)



Games listed as 'DOES NOT PLAYBACK' means that this game does NOT play back in ANY version of MAME. Your voting will determine whether this game will be permissible with a SCREENSHOT or whether it shall be BANNED until it is poossible to play it back.



'IMPROPER CONTROL ADVANTAGE' refers to a massive advantage gained in a game by playing it with something like a keyboard instead of an actual trackball--to the point where you can attain a perfect/close to perfect score. From Stig's comments, admittedly the average MARP player might be able to do better with alternate controls on Marble Madness or Crystal Castles, but I'm betting the pros wouldn't. An ICA means that the spirit of the game is undeniably altered/destroyed by using a different controller. Conversely, if you can't accept this, accept the fact that there are between 10-20 way ties for most of the games under this heading--and not for Discs of Tron or Robotron.



Finally, I have listed Fax as a single entry--it is really 4 entries that will be voted on at once(the four categories)



alexkidd -- (broken)



battlan2 10 (broken)



battlan3 10 (broken)



battlane 10 (broken)



cabal 550 (broken)



cabal2 550 (broken)



darkplnt 5000 (broken)



fitter -- (broken)



bowler-fl 8410 (improper control advantage)



bowler-rg 300 (improper control advantage)



bowlrama-bj 420 (improper control advantage)



bowlrama-br 300 (improper control advantage)



bowlrama-fm 9600 (improper control advantage)



capbowl 300 (improper control advantage)



capbowl2 300 (improper control advantage)



clbowl 300 (improper control advantage)



medlanes 300 (improper control advantage)



robotbwl 300 (improper control advantage)



shuuz 36 (improper control advantage)



shuuz2 36 (improper control advantage)



breakers -- (does not playback)



breakrev -- (does not playback)



carnvckt -- (does not playback)



flipshot -- (does not playback)



headon2 -- (does not playback)



lastbld2 -- (does not playback)



blockade 6 (too easy)



checkmat 6 (too easy)



dominos 4 (too easy)



fax 85300 (too easy)



lazercmd 15 (too easy)



lottofun 5000 (too easy)



sucasino 200 (too easy)



comotion 4 (two player game)



gunfight -- (two player game)



warrior -- (two player game)



THANK YOU FOR YOUR EFFORTS. THE VOTING WILL CLOSE IN 10 DAYS FROM NOW. AT THAT POINT, THE RESULTS WILL BE EXAMINED AS A GROUP AT MARP, AND WE WILL DECIDE HOW TO PROCEED BASED ON THOSE RESULTS.



Sincerely,
Q.T.Quazar

--
qan@home.com

Chris Parsley · Post by **Chris Parsley** » Sun Sep 19, 1999 12:30 pm

As you have asked, and I have complied with, here are my votes...
(Fitting I am first, since I have been most critical of banning
anything)



alexkidd -- (broken)
YES, TEMP
battlan2 10 (broken)
YES, TEMP
battlan3 10 (broken)
YES, TEMP
battlane 10 (broken)
YES, TEMP
cabal 550 (broken)
YES, TEMP
cabal2 550 (broken)
YES, TEMP
darkplnt 5000 (broken)
YES, TEMP
fitter -- (broken)
YES, TEMP
bowler-fl 8410 (improper control advantage)
NO. 8410 ISN'T TOP SCORE AVAILABLE, WHAT IS THE IMPROPER CONTROL?
bowler-rg 300 (improper control advantage)
NO, EVEN THOUGH I CAN'T SCORE 300
bowlrama-bj 420 (improper control advantage)
YES, UNTIL THE OVERLY FAST SPEED MOVEMENT IS FIXED
bowlrama-br 300 (improper control advantage)
SAME AS ABOVE
bowlrama-fm 9600 (improper control advantage)
SAME AS ABOVE
capbowl 300 (improper control advantage)
NO TOO BAD PEOPLE SCORE 300, I KNOW I CANT
capbowl2 300 (improper control advantage)
SAME
clbowl 300 (improper control advantage)
SAME
medlanes 300 (improper control advantage)
SAME
robotbwl 300 (improper control advantage)
SAME
shuuz 36 (improper control advantage)
SAME
shuuz2 36 (improper control advantage)
SAME
breakers -- (does not playback)
YES, TEMPORARY
breakrev -- (does not playback)
YES, TEMPORARY
carnvckt -- (does not playback)
YES, TEMPORARY
flipshot -- (does not playback)
YES, TEMPORARY
headon2 -- (does not playback)
YES, TEMPORARY
lastbld2 -- (does not playback)
YES, TEMPORARY
blockade 6 (too easy)
NO. TOO BAD!
checkmat 6 (too easy)
NO. TOO BAD!
dominos 4 (too easy)
NO. TOO BAD!
fax 85300 (too easy)
NO, TRIVIA IS NOT TOO EASY, EVER. AND I DON'T THINK THAT IS THE MAX
SCORE POSSIBLE. WHAT IS EASY TO ONE ISN'T TO OTHERS.
lazercmd 15 (too easy)
NEVER PLAYED, SO I CAN'T VOTE
lottofun 5000 (too easy)
NO. HAVE YOU TRIED TO GET 5000 TICKETS, IT IS CERTAINLY NOT EASY
sucasino 200 (too easy)
NO. 200 IS NOT EASY TO GET FROM 1 CREDIT
comotion 4 (two player game)
YES, NO WAY TO PLAY AS 1 PLAYER
gunfight -- (two player game)
SAME
warrior -- (two player game)
SAME

--
cparsley1@hotmail.com

Dave Kaupp · Post by **Dave Kaupp** » Sun Sep 19, 1999 12:30 pm

alexkidd -- (broken)
battlan2 10 (broken)
battlan3 10 (broken)
battlane 10 (broken)
cabal 550 (broken)
cabal2 550 (broken)
darkplnt 5000 (broken)
fitter -- (broken)



Yes, temporary.



bowler-fl 8410 (improper control advantage)
bowler-rg 300 (improper control advantage)
bowlrama-bj 420 (improper control advantage)
bowlrama-br 300 (improper control advantage)
bowlrama-fm 9600 (improper control advantage)
capbowl 300 (improper control advantage)
capbowl2 300 (improper control advantage)
clbowl 300 (improper control advantage)
medlanes 300 (improper control advantage)
robotbwl 300 (improper control advantage)
shuuz 36 (improper control advantage)
shuuz2 36 (improper control advantage)



Can the inp file be checked for directional keystrokes?
Abstain for now.



breakers -- (does not playback)
breakrev -- (does not playback)
carnvckt -- (does not playback)
flipshot -- (does not playback)
headon2 -- (does not playback)
lastbld2 -- (does not playback)



Yes, temporary.
Add Depth Charge?



blockade 6 (too easy)
checkmat 6 (too easy)
dominos 4 (too easy)



Yes, forever.



fax 85300 (too easy)



Unsure at this time.



lazercmd 15 (too easy)



Yes.



lottofun 5000 (too easy)



Yes.

PS. 5000 requires more than 1 credit I do beleive.
PPS. Chris, play back an inp file and use those same numbers.

sucasino 200 (too easy)



Unsure, probably yes.



comotion 4 (two player game)
gunfight -- (two player game)
warrior -- (two player game)



Yes.

--
info@kaupp.cx

Ben Jos Walbeehm · Post by **Ben Jos Walbeehm** » Sun Sep 19, 1999 12:30 pm

alexkidd -- (broken) Never played it...


battlan2 10 (broken) Never played it...



battlan3 10 (broken) Never played it...



battlane 10 (broken) Never played it...



cabal 550 (broken) Never played it...



cabal2 550 (broken) Never played it...



darkplnt 5000 (broken) Never played it...



fitter -- (broken) Never played it...



bowler-fl 8410 (improper control advantage) Yes.



bowler-rg 300 (improper control advantage) Yes. Too easy. With a
little trial and error, 300 is easily obtained.



bowlrama-bj 420 (improper control advantage) Yes. Too easy. See
above.



bowlrama-br 300 (improper control advantage) Yes. Too easy. See
above.



bowlrama-fm 9600 (improper control advantage) Yes.



capbowl 300 (improper control advantage) Yes. Too easy.



capbowl2 300 (improper control advantage) Yes. Too easy.



clbowl 300 (improper control advantage) Yes. Too easy.



medlanes 300 (improper control advantage) Yes.



robotbwl 300 (improper control advantage) Yes.



shuuz 36 (improper control advantage) Never played it...



shuuz2 36 (improper control advantage) Never played it...



breakers -- (does not playback) Never played it...



breakrev -- (does not playback) Never played it...



carnvckt -- (does not playback) Never played it...



flipshot -- (does not playback) Never played it...



headon2 -- (does not playback) Yes, until it's fixed.



lastbld2 -- (does not playback) Never played it...



blockade 6 (too easy) Yes.



checkmat 6 (too easy) Yes.



dominos 4 (too easy) Yes.



fax 85300 (too easy) Never played it...



lazercmd 15 (too easy) Yes. In addition, I recorded a 15,
but it didn't play back properly.



lottofun 5000 (too easy) Yes.



sucasino 200 (too easy) Never played it...



comotion 4 (two player game) Yes.



gunfight -- (two player game) Never played it...



warrior -- (two player game) Never played it...



Ben Jos.

--
walbeehm@walbeehm.com

BeeJay · Post by **BeeJay** » Sun Sep 19, 1999 12:30 pm

Broken games - temporary ban until they're playable.


Two players required - probably no point in having them there for
leaderboard points.



All other games - leave them there. If they're that easy and someone
is really interested in the 100 points so be it. I personally
haven't been bothered trying to find them and if I'm ever worried
about unfair advantage there's nothing to stop me spending a day or
two to get the "perfect" points along with everyone else.



BeeJay.

--
bjohnstone@cardinal.co.nz

BeeJay · Post by **BeeJay** » Sun Sep 19, 1999 12:30 pm

PS: By broken games I mean games that either don't play at all or
don't playback after being recorded.

--
bjohnstone@cardinal.co.nz

Gameboy9 · Post by **Gameboy9** » Sun Sep 19, 1999 12:30 pm

alexkidd -- (broken)


battlan2 10 (broken)



battlan3 10 (broken)



battlane 10 (broken)



cabal 550 (broken)



cabal2 550 (broken)



All above = Yes



darkplnt 5000 (broken)



No opinion - failure to play game



fitter -- (broken)



Yip



bowler-fl 8410 (improper control advantage)



bowler-rg 300 (improper control advantage)



bowlrama-bj 420 (improper control advantage)



bowlrama-br 300 (improper control advantage)



bowlrama-fm 9600 (improper control advantage)



capbowl 300 (improper control advantage)



capbowl2 300 (improper control advantage)



clbowl 300 (improper control advantage)



medlanes 300 (improper control advantage)



robotbwl 300 (improper control advantage)



shuuz 36 (improper control advantage)



shuuz2 36 (improper control advantage)



breakers -- (does not playback)



breakrev -- (does not playback)



carnvckt -- (does not playback)



flipshot -- (does not playback)



all above, yes



headon2 -- (does not playback)



If headon2 was released by m33b4, no, otherwise, yes



lastbld2 -- (does not playback)



blockade 6 (too easy)



checkmat 6 (too easy)



dominos 4 (too easy)



fax 85300 (too easy)



all above, yes - the same questions come back when you start the
recording everytime.



lazercmd 15 (too easy)



lottofun 5000 (too easy)



sucasino 200 (too easy)



comotion 4 (two player game)



all above, yes.



gunfight -- (two player game)



warrior -- (two player game)



no opinion - failure to play



OK... that's it I believe... thanks 4 reading

--
goldengameboy@yahoo.com

Alex Weir · Post by **Alex Weir** » Sun Sep 19, 1999 12:30 pm

I`m not a veteran MARP-ER , or a Leaderboard contender...all I do is
play games I enjoy playing and submit. But for the record , I`d go
along with what BeeJay had to say.
I don`t ( or would probably never ) play ANY of these games.
But while the Subject Matter is about banning games , does/will this
extend to banning certain techniques ? Y`know , the much maligned
Auto-fire issue for starters , or the GNG scenario...etc.
To conclude , ( although the games in question don`t apply to me ),
I`ll vote the same as BeeJay.
You know it makes sense......



ALEX

--
alexweir@indigo.ie

MvdV · Post by **MvdV** » Sun Sep 19, 1999 12:30 pm

Broken: Yes
Two player games: Yes
Improper control advantage: No
Too easy: No
Does not playback: Yes

--
cypr135@knoware.nl

Cicca · Post by **Cicca** » Mon Sep 20, 1999 12:30 pm

I will not vote for that issue for a few simple reasons: 1)I've never
played most of the listed games, therefore I've no idea of how
broken/easy/stupid/uncontrollable/etc. they are; 2)there are a couple
of games listed that worth me 200 points, so I cannot vote for them;
3)<polemic mode ON> I really wish to see one of this "banning" or
"regulation" threads brought to the end with *facts*; I have the
feeling that we all want to regulate MARP just in words, and that
nothing is really done after discussing, and voting, and wasting
time. MARP is still a Far West, with points leeching recordings
worthing 100s of points, flooded of any kind of submission, with
recording I actully wonder how they have been confirmed (German
Krol's "DepthCharge", just to name one). It will not make a big
difference, I know, but personally, I will not vote for any other
issue in here until I'll see it worth to something. <polemic mode OFF>

--
cicca@writeme.com

Q.T.Quazar · Post by **Q.T.Quazar** » Mon Sep 20, 1999 12:30 pm

Cicca, let me state quite simply to you or anyone else thinking of
making such a lame post: this vote is intended as a
once-and-for-all-time end to the discussion of 'extremely lame
scores/banned games', and steps are being taken to transfer control of
the banned games techniques/points leeching from Angry to another MARP
player or group of players AFTER this vote has finished. But that
again is a totally different, and as far as this vote is concerned,
irrelevant discussion.



If you do not believe in democracy, fine; but your statements come
across as both rude and obnoxious towards the people who have put
their effort into compiling this list of games and listening to
people's opinions on this subject over the last two months. You cannot
have the moral high ground of saying that you will not vote on a list
which you find silly and ill-conceived, and then turn around and
complain that -BEGIN QUOTE- "3) I really wish to see one of this
"banning" or "regulation" threads brought to the end with *facts*; I
have the feeling that we all want to regulate MARP just in words, and
that nothing is really done after discussing, and voting, and wasting
time." -END QUOTE- This statement is both hypocritical and
non-productive rhetoric.



This IS NOT a discussion post, this is a voting post, and my rant has
gone on long enough (there was a full week and a half of discussion
time to post about the vote). Therefore either vote yes, vote no, or
go mind your own business elsewhere, Cicca. If you want to further
discuss this issue in a new thread, fine. If you want to flame me, so
be it, my e-mail is qan@home.com But leave this thread to those who
actually want to make a difference.

--
qan@home.com

Chris Parsley · Post by **Chris Parsley** » Mon Sep 20, 1999 12:30 pm

I've made my votes, but I want to make one observation here quickly...
How can most of these people, who haven't ever even seen the game,
vote on whether it should be gone forever?
Are we ready to reduce MARP to a once someone maxes a game out,
(example Super Casino) we are going to yank it away. (Take that
person's 100pts away?)
MARP was designed for all MAME games, good and bad. If we start
removing games now, we defeat MAME's purpose. If they are "too easy"
as someone claims, why isn't there 200 postings of the "perfect game"?
Simple, because it isn't that easy!!!
MARP should stay the way it was designed to be. Simple.

--
cparsley1@hotmail.com

Cicca · Post by **Cicca** » Mon Sep 20, 1999 12:30 pm

What will happen if in the next MAME realeases will be included other
games that could be considered "broken", or "x players", or "improper
control advantage", or "too easy", or "does not playback" !?!



Is this really a "Final Vote" !?!? Will we vote again and again
every beta, or every final version !?!

--
cicca@writeme.com

Q.T.Quazar · Post by **Q.T.Quazar** » Mon Sep 20, 1999 12:30 pm

I'll apologize to you if I came down a little heavy, Cicca. But it
really bothers me when people do not/are not paying attention. When
you said that this was not a final vote, but just more hot air, you
should be able to understand why I was annoyed. And I think you should
also be able to appreciate that it is annoying to have someone who did
not participate in the discussion leading up to this post come in and
start reopening the entire issue again in a VOTING post. That is why I
specifically asked that any new questions or concerns be routed to my
or skito's e-mail, AND NOT THIS POST.



Again, that doesn't excuse me for being rude. Sorry. You just sounded
so high-handed

People, when you read someone's post, please, READ IT THOROUGHLY.



To quote the last two postings, for example:



Cparsley: How can most of these people, who haven't ever even seen the
game, vote on whether it should be gone forever?



which is intuitively answered in the original header with:



The parentheses indicate the problem with the game, so you can decide
to vote to keep or ban it temporarily, or ban it permanently.



you'll notice, CP, that the other players all voted along the lines of
banning a certain TYPE of game, not specific games that they may have
had more or less points on.



From Cicca's latest quote:



What will happen if in the next MAME realeases[sic] will be included
other games that could be considered "broken", or "x players", or
"improper control advantage", or "too easy", or "does not playback"
!?!



Is this really a "Final Vote" !?!? Will we vote again and again every
beta, or every final version !?!



and again, the answer, in the header:



With the direct collaboration of gameboy, skito, Dave, and myself, we
now present the FINAL list to you of QUESTIONABLE GAMES for this and
all prior beta cycles. Every new beta cycle the games on this list
will be re-examined and re-evaluated.



To continue the statement, there have already been another 3 games
suggested (yes, including depth charge) which will be in the next vote
depending on the success of this one. But if we can't get through this
vote without people interfering with something that was already
discussed, then Cicca, you're right. This board IS just a bunch of hot
air, and nobody wants to make a change. It's getting to the point here
that nobody wants to take any initiative, because everything gets so
weighed down in bureaucracy.



Now please people, let's just finish the vote, and then we can discuss
extraneous measures afterwards.

--
qan@home.com

Ben Jos Walbeehm · Post by **Ben Jos Walbeehm** » Mon Sep 20, 1999 12:30 pm

To Chris Parsley:


Your argument that the fact that there aren't 200 uploads with
perfect scores means that it is not that easy does not hold. I had
perfect scores myself on several games, uploaded them to MARP, later
changed my mind and deleted them again. A LOT of MARPers don't care
about the free 100 point games. Look at BBH for example. Do you
really think someone with more than 170 first places can't get a
perfect score on ANY of those games? Because you'll notice that his
name is missing when you look at the lists of people who submitted
scores for those games. And the same goes for a lot of other players.
The reason there aren't 200 perfect score uploads per easy game is
because a lot of MARPers do not want the free points...



Ben Jos.

--
walbeehm@walbeehm.com