Twin hawk

Discussion about MARP's regulation play

Moderator: BBH

Post Reply
User avatar
Chad
Tournament Coordinator
Posts: 4463
Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2002 3:15 pm
Location: calif

Twin hawk

Post by Chad »

ZID wrote:Hi, spanish people says me that in this replay from WRX2,

http://replay.marpirc.net/r/twinhawk

bullets speed is more slow that the normal, but not only bullet speed, the game run slowly, it's strange. Chad, you can see the WRX2 replay and then others replays with wolfmame and you can see that now, with defult settings in normal difficulty, make the WRX2 replay is imposible (but is imposible because now speed enemies and bullets speed haven't the same speed that the WRX2 replay)

Can you help me, please?
Sure no problem, also please post questions about recordings and rules in the Regulation Play Forum. The Playbackability forum is just to check if games can playback or don't playback.

I've pulled pac's and WRX2 Twin Hawk recordings side by side, they both go the relatively the same speed, nothing unusual. In fact PAC has a better strategy than WRX2, he saves more bombs/men early on. PAC just loses 1 ship very early to the double submarine and then loses his power up, and then loses 2 more. He just would have avoided that boss, he could do much better than WRX2.

I've also analyzed both recordings press rates and variance. Both have signatures of human presses (they are not at constant rates) which means there was not autofire used in either. If you go by presses per minute, they are about the same

WRX2 Presses 16763 for 46 minutes of play = 364 presses per minute
PAC Presses 5603 for 16 minutes of play = 350 presses per minute

6 presses per second is faster than I can press but not unusual and can not prove autofire. But, remember it is not the speed of the bullets, not even the speed of the presses, that can tell if autofire has been used. It is the variance of the presses that can tell human from machine. The presses of both these recordings have a nice distribution as people press faster for high intensive moments and slower for relatively safe moments. Human like.
ZID wrote:Spanish people ask me that, if PAC replay in 1943 was move to 0 for the bullets speed of PAC, this replay of WRX2 must to move to 0 for the bullets speed of enemies.
I would 0(zero) this recording in a minute this if I saw WRX2 was using non Human like presses. But the WRX2 twin hawk recording looks just as normal press wise as PAC's twin hawk recording, so they both are legal from this test.
-skito
Q. T. Quazar
Button Masher
Button Masher
Posts: 98
Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2010 5:01 pm

Re: Twin hawk

Post by Q. T. Quazar »

i think he was referring to the enemies, skito, not the player. though i'm not sure how such a difference could be accomplished with WolfMAME anyway.

i'll take a look later today and doublecheck as well, since i'm going through .inps en masse lately.

how do these players sustain 6+ presses a second anyway? i can understnad doing bursts in TandF, but for the length of a shooter?
User avatar
mahlemiut
Editor
Posts: 4183
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2002 10:05 pm
Location: New Zealand
Contact:

Re: Twin hawk

Post by mahlemiut »

Yes, ZID was going on about this this morning on #marp. But I do have to agree with him, that wrx2's INP has slower projectiles than normal. Play it yourself for a bit, and you'll see the difference compared to wrx2's INP. It's harder to compare to Pac's since you don't see any projectiles until a fair way in. Next step is to convert it to a normal format INP and check the DIP switch setting to confirm it. (Just have to get around to it ;))
- Barry Rodewald
MARP Assistant Web Maintainer
Image
User avatar
BBH
Editor
Posts: 1582
Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2002 7:06 am
Location: Portland, Oregon
Contact:

Re: Twin hawk

Post by BBH »

It's definitely a change in the difficulty dip switch setting... play on default Medium setting, look at the speed of the bullets the tanks fire, switch the difficulty to Easy and reset and start a new game, it's immediately noticable how much slower the bullets are. 0.64 still had the default difficulty as Medium so there's no excuse, WRX2 definitely changed it.
ZID
MARP Serf
MARP Serf
Posts: 162
Joined: Mon Feb 08, 2010 10:23 am

Re: Twin hawk

Post by ZID »

Thanks friends, the question is the bullet's speed of enemies, and the difficult (number of shoots that you need from finished the big enemies), not the player

My numbers (with a chronometer)

In the PAC's replay and in the WRX2's replay, the first tank in the game shoot in the same moment in both replays, and the time from the shoot (bullet) to the end of monitor is...

PAC replay: 1,27 seconds (wolfmame 106, difficult normal)
WRX2: 2',11 seconds (¿?)
Me: 2''08 seconds (playing with wolfmame 106, difficult easy)

:wink:
User avatar
Chad
Tournament Coordinator
Posts: 4463
Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2002 3:15 pm
Location: calif

Re: Twin hawk

Post by Chad »

ok, duh on my part. my bad. For sure the difficulty name of the 2nd tiered difficulty changed, in tgmame64 easy [medium] hard hardest, in wolf106 easy [normal] hard hardest. So it's likely the actually difficulty of enemies changed. And it appears the wolf106 is easier than the tgmame64 difficulty. We normally allow easier settings for later default mames, but we can decide to nuke all scores that used the previous easier default difficulty to allow future default recordings to compete at the same level. It's not clear that changing wolf106 to easy will be the same as tgmame64 [medium] though.
-skito
User avatar
mahlemiut
Editor
Posts: 4183
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2002 10:05 pm
Location: New Zealand
Contact:

Re: Twin hawk

Post by mahlemiut »

There's is no difference in default difficulty between 0.64 and 0.106. It is still difficulty level 2 out of 4. Only listed changes are to the Lives DIP switch, and the Cabinet DIP switch (Twin Hawk is 2P simultaneous, unlike the Japanese version Daisenpu)
It is pretty clear that wrx2 used easy.
- Barry Rodewald
MARP Assistant Web Maintainer
Image
User avatar
Chad
Tournament Coordinator
Posts: 4463
Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2002 3:15 pm
Location: calif

Re: Twin hawk

Post by Chad »

running the inp tgmame64 showed medium dipswitch, but if it was recorded on easy (as everyone thinks the enemies are running on easy) then it will be zeroed.

http://replay.marpirc.net/r/twinhawk
-skito
User avatar
mahlemiut
Editor
Posts: 4183
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2002 10:05 pm
Location: New Zealand
Contact:

Re: Twin hawk

Post by mahlemiut »

No version of MAME has ever displayed the current DIP switch states, that was a MAME Plus feature, which sadly disappeared at some point.
- Barry Rodewald
MARP Assistant Web Maintainer
Image
User avatar
Chad
Tournament Coordinator
Posts: 4463
Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2002 3:15 pm
Location: calif

Re: Twin hawk

Post by Chad »

Hmm, I thought mame read the dips from the inp and then when you press tab and look at the dip switches they are set? Or is that just reading the local cfg file? Can you recompile tgmame64 to prove that wrx2's inp has the easy dip set?
-skito
User avatar
mahlemiut
Editor
Posts: 4183
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2002 10:05 pm
Location: New Zealand
Contact:

Re: Twin hawk

Post by mahlemiut »

I'm not sure I even have the source from way back then, it pre-dates both my current PCs. I will have a look, though.
- Barry Rodewald
MARP Assistant Web Maintainer
Image
IIOPAII
Button Masher
Button Masher
Posts: 48
Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2010 1:21 pm

Re: Twin hawk

Post by IIOPAII »

Hi guys.

I think you dont need so long time to view that the game is in easy mode.
Please tell us about the decrypter of the INP, some notice.

Bye
User avatar
Chad
Tournament Coordinator
Posts: 4463
Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2002 3:15 pm
Location: calif

Re: Twin hawk

Post by Chad »

You can 100% prove if we decompiled the inp with the original tgmame64 source, Barry is trying this. But in the mean time, at least two editors believe now that the score was made on easy. So, i will zero it now in anticipation of the 100% proof.
-skito
Post Reply