Archive these games -topic

Discussion about MARP's regulation play

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Re: Archive these games -topic

Postby BBH » Sat Sep 16, 2017 2:16 pm

The funniest thing about this is that there's several other versions of World Class Bowling that have been archived because of easy 300 scores. Of course another version of it should be archived, but our good friend thinks it's an attack on him. Like, if there's several other versions of World Class Bowling that have been archived, what did you think was going to happen to this one?
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Re: Archive these games -topic

Postby simpsons99 » Sat Sep 16, 2017 6:47 pm

I sent a email about something needed to happen about PP . I have not gotten a respond yet ..
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Re: Archive these games -topic

Postby giro-X » Sun Sep 17, 2017 4:56 pm

MJS wrote:Hi all.
Although I am not very active lately, as a member of this community, I want to share my thoughts.
I've never cared and I still don't care about the leaderboard. Users polluting MARP with crappy replays is not an issue for me. I simply ignore them and only look at per-game rankings for games I care about. However, I really hate seeing so many useless messages in these forums. That does bother me, because I believe the forums are a very valuable resource. Uploading replays is awesome. Uploading replays and explaining with words the techniques behind the replays is even more awesome. Many times I've seen members here collaborating with each other to improve play techniques and understanding how the games work. I am now seeing the forums taking a very different direction. Instead of sharing valuable information I see it getting overflowed with just crap. I admire all of you who answer politely and try to make sense out of nonsensical messages, but forums are still being polluted. I understand we are human beings and we simply enjoy talking to each other, we share our point of view, we try to win arguments, we go off topic from time to time, etc. but what I see here is beyond my comprehension. I see one particular member (PP.) bringing the worst out of everybody because he's being allowed to insult, demand and address to others disrespectfully. Threads go to hell very quickly repeating the same shit over and over. Maybe something good will eventually come out of this (I like Haze's proposal to make banned games count negative points for the leaderboard) but it got lost very quickly among the crap and wasn't discussed any further.
I think we need to agree on the problem(s) and then discuss how to solve them, otherwise users (myself included) will lose interest in this community. For me, the problem is twofold, a user is being allowed to treat others like shit and pollutes the forums, and the leaderboard with its current scoring encourages specific users to upload junk, which then evolves into forum crap, more junk replays, etc in a vicious circle. Solution, temporarily ban PP. to help him think about his behavior, continue with game archiving, and change LB scoring for archived games to count against the leaderboard as Haze suggested.


^^ this ^^

I strongly agree with some of your points, MJS. And as a demonstration that you are right, go figure what a coincidence, your message too seems to have been ignored by anyone (except PP who is/was obsessed at attacking any, any comment), at least nobody left a reply or a thought after.

One thing where I disagree is about the effectiveness of having points subtracted from scores uploaded at archived games.
If some players really care about position in leaderboard, then, and they have old or recent uploads in those rankings, they can simply delete their uploads to nullify the subtraction of points, thus, this wouldn't discourage them from climbing the leaderboard at any cost, and in my humble opinion, some fellas we know well would still not hesitate at trying to upload scores to possible candidates for archiving, when these have just been added to MARP and are not starred yet.
Because you know, "maybe people get tired of archiving everything, we can still have a chance, blah blah".
This is why I am skeptical about it. Archiving games does the real subtraction of points, adding a penalty would be just a trouble for people with very very old scores that get affected and don't like that. Also you forget that some rankings dedicated to old tournaments, have being archived too.


Off topic from the archiving of games, but still content of your message... another thing where I slightly disagree is related to board & forums being a source of explanation of game techniques and collaboration between players to improve scores.

...
where? :? where did this happen? Or better, I'm sure this must have been happened, but how often? How many ages ago? :?
I'm for the most, a lonely wolf in competitions (because these are, if any game has a ranking with places - open competitions), I don't really feel at ease at giving away all of my tech for making a good replay - of course if you let people look at a replay, there's something they can deduct by watching it, but there's even more lonely wolves than me who are making stuff in background and don't even let you peek at it.
Until there's a system on MARP that gives importance to only the first classified in a game, no matter if the current 2nd or 3rd is the one who brought up important tech and they lose the top score for a nail, the interest in sharing and explaining techniques may be really really poor (as it is, de facto, now under my impression).
I would like to pick a specific example to give a better idea of what can happen when techniques are shared and the merit of best replay goes to an a**hole only able to copy others' stuff... but it would force me to say names, so nah.
And don't get me wrong, despite all of that, I still would like at times to write down somewhere the strats I found for some games, to leave something more than the impression of casual gaming, to explain something that you can't understand by just watching, at times even to let someone improve the score if they are interested - but then, as before, what if a guy with bad reputation (no names again) copies the strats and beats the score by just a tiny bunch, adding nothing new? That doesn't sound cool and satisfactory at all.

As I said, this is off topic, or maybe not so much, but still, I don't want to have much discussion over this, everyone has a behaviour with their progresses and results,
and we can't satisfy everyone under this aspect.
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Re: Archive these games -topic

Postby Haze » Sun Sep 17, 2017 7:55 pm

I didn't leave any further messages because those would also basically just be pointlessly adding to the thread, for now, the problem is solved, the place is a lot more peaceful, the troll is gone.

This means the forums are now lower traffic, and the actual posts being made are all more worthwhile, which is much better.
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Re: Archive these games -topic

Postby MJS » Sun Sep 17, 2017 8:26 pm

giro-X wrote:where? :? where did this happen? Or better, I'm sure this must have been happened, but how often? How many ages ago? :?
I'm for the most, a lonely wolf in competitions (because these are, if any game has a ranking with places - open competitions), I don't really feel at ease at giving away all of my tech for making a good replay - of course if you let people look at a replay, there's something they can deduct by watching it, but there's even more lonely wolves than me who are making stuff in background and don't even let you peek at it.
Until there's a system on MARP that gives importance to only the first classified in a game, no matter if the current 2nd or 3rd is the one who brought up important tech and they lose the top score for a nail, the interest in sharing and explaining techniques may be really really poor (as it is, de facto, now under my impression).
I would like to pick a specific example to give a better idea of what can happen when techniques are shared and the merit of best replay goes to an a**hole only able to copy others' stuff... but it would force me to say names, so nah.
And don't get me wrong, despite all of that, I still would like at times to write down somewhere the strats I found for some games, to leave something more than the impression of casual gaming, to explain something that you can't understand by just watching, at times even to let someone improve the score if they are interested - but then, as before, what if a guy with bad reputation (no names again) copies the strats and beats the score by just a tiny bunch, adding nothing new? That doesn't sound cool and satisfactory at all.

Hi giro-X,
Yeah it's been a while since we've last discussed play techniques and tricks on a game, but believe me this forum is full of gold.
Off the top of my head, I remember during K7 tournament we discussed techniques on Golden Axe, a game for which we thought everything was known already, and guess what we learned new tricks could be performed with Gilius=Thunderhead.
I've also opened threads or joined existing discussions about many other games, and learned great stuff (Pac-Land, Raiden, Star Force, Wonderboy, etc... too many to list).
When you share what you know you allow other people to improve whatever you have discovered, otherwise it is only you who can improve it.
You said "if someone copies the strategies and beats the score adding nothing new, it doesn't sound cool and satisfactory".
I don't know about that episode you don't want to bring up, but perhaps you wouldn't feel that way if you start sharing techniques.
It's about collaboration... others will benefit from what you know, but you will also benefit from others.
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Re: Archive these games -topic

Postby BeeJay » Sun Sep 17, 2017 11:11 pm

One of the things I like most about Marp is that people do share the inps so you can see what they did to get scores, and in some cases potentially emulate it to improve your own gameplay. That's one of the things I most dislike about TG, their insistence that someone should be able to "protect" their techniques. You could never do that in the arcades, someone could just watch you while you played the game, so having that ability on Marp is like having a virtual shoulder to look over.

If the ONLY reason someone can get a better score is because of some technique that they found/developed, does that make them the better player or just the luckier player that they happened to stumble across that technique during their gameplay?
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Re: Archive these games -topic

Postby BBH » Mon Sep 18, 2017 6:16 am

giro-X wrote:Off topic from the archiving of games, but still content of your message... another thing where I slightly disagree is related to board & forums being a source of explanation of game techniques and collaboration between players to improve scores.

...
where? :? where did this happen? Or better, I'm sure this must have been happened, but how often? How many ages ago? :?
I'm for the most, a lonely wolf in competitions (because these are, if any game has a ranking with places - open competitions), I don't really feel at ease at giving away all of my tech for making a good replay - of course if you let people look at a replay, there's something they can deduct by watching it, but there's even more lonely wolves than me who are making stuff in background and don't even let you peek at it.
Until there's a system on MARP that gives importance to only the first classified in a game, no matter if the current 2nd or 3rd is the one who brought up important tech and they lose the top score for a nail, the interest in sharing and explaining techniques may be really really poor (as it is, de facto, now under my impression).
I would like to pick a specific example to give a better idea of what can happen when techniques are shared and the merit of best replay goes to an a**hole only able to copy others' stuff... but it would force me to say names, so nah.
And don't get me wrong, despite all of that, I still would like at times to write down somewhere the strats I found for some games, to leave something more than the impression of casual gaming, to explain something that you can't understand by just watching, at times even to let someone improve the score if they are interested - but then, as before, what if a guy with bad reputation (no names again) copies the strats and beats the score by just a tiny bunch, adding nothing new? That doesn't sound cool and satisfactory at all.

As I said, this is off topic, or maybe not so much, but still, I don't want to have much discussion over this, everyone has a behaviour with their progresses and results,
and we can't satisfy everyone under this aspect.


Yeah umm, that's a topic for a completely different thread, really getting away from the topic of which games need to be archived.

But I will say I completely disagree with this. The beauty of MARP is getting to see how these scores are done, it's the entire purpose of this site. I've learned so much about games in the last 20 years that I never got to see high-level play for in actual arcades. There's a lot of games where the techniques to get high scores are pretty obscure and I am all for seeing these tactics be preserved.

It's understandable if you don't want to give everything away in a tournament, but this is what I always say - if it's a game where memorizing patterns is more important than actual player skill, is it really all that interesting a game for competition?

In the words of destructor, "do you want to die with your secrets?"
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Re: Archive these games -topic

Postby giro-X » Mon Sep 18, 2017 2:18 pm

Not quoting anything specific, and yes this is why I didn't want to have much discussion over this, it's not the right place. I knew people would have disagreed with me, perhaps I also shouldn't write posts at 4 in the morning otherwise I risk to be not fully understood.

You dudes have all a point in what you say, I accept that. It just annoys me to have such a system where, unless you study the scores situation on your own, it seems like the top score is the most relevant and all the rest from 2nd to bottom is unimportant.
Do you study, train, work hard on a game, maybe on your only own, and discover lot of useful, hidden, not obvious stuff and strats? And then try your best, get a great score, maybe after years of playing, and publish it? And maybe explain some tactics so, you know, people watching the replay can understand better how difficult some things were, can appreciate more what they watch? That's the best moment, yes.

Until someone who only seeks for glory and first places at all costs, literally steals all of your moves and strats, and in a month or less beats your score by a grain of dust (would it be instead a considerable amount of progress, then okay losers are losers, peace). Doesn't thank you, people didn't even know he was going after it, no nothing. And then no matter how hard you try again, you can't beat him another time. This is the bad side I fear... that luckily still hasn't happened (so heavily) to my scores/discovers/tons of hours of training at anything. And of course I also don't like to be the one who's seen as a stealer either.

Please don't bother too much about this parenthesis of mine, maybe I'm just having a bad period, or have poor self confidence and all that magical stuff that makes people feel great. I simply hate wasting time to get a second place, that's it.
Probably having leaderboards where an average of percentages is shown, instead of a sum of first places, would make me feel less disappointed, but yeah, never going to happen.
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Re: Archive these games -topic

Postby The TJT » Mon Sep 18, 2017 10:18 pm

BBH wrote:In the words of destructor, "do you want to die with your secrets?"

Sounds like a threat!
:)

"Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery" - Charles Caleb Colton, 1820.
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Re: Archive these games -topic

Postby BeeJay » Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:45 pm

The following 2 games could probably do with archiving due to a large number of people with the same maxed out 1st place score:

http://replay.marpirc.net/r/ldrun
http://replay.marpirc.net/r/ldruna

Yes, I am aware this will also impact me as one of the people who have maxed out the score on one of these games, but rules is rules so I'm not going to complain about the "loss" of LB points. :)
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Re: Archive these games -topic

Postby BeeJay » Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:49 pm

The following game could probably do with archiving due to it being "unplayable" on the stage most people have died on without the laser disc imagery - unless of course it is now fully playable with a CHD for the laser disc imagery?

http://replay.marpirc.net/r/usvsthem

Again, this will impact me but as I said in the last post on this thread, rules is rules. :)
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Re: Archive these games -topic

Postby giro-X » Wed Sep 20, 2017 1:41 pm

BeeJay wrote:The following game could probably do with archiving due to it being "unplayable" on the stage most people have died on without the laser disc imagery - unless of course it is now fully playable with a CHD for the laser disc imagery?

http://replay.marpirc.net/r/usvsthem

Again, this will impact me but as I said in the last post on this thread, rules is rules. :)

No, this game is fully playable since MAME 0.129 (0.130?), last WIP reported in mameinfo.dat is for MAME 0.151.
The CHD is about 13.5 GB big.
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Re: Archive these games -topic

Postby BeeJay » Wed Sep 20, 2017 5:23 pm

giro-X wrote:No, this game is fully playable since MAME 0.129 (0.130?), last WIP reported in mameinfo.dat is for MAME 0.151.
The CHD is about 13.5 GB big.

Thanks for the update. I've always wanted to know what we were meant to be dodging on the stage where we were all dying during Marp's T1 tournament. Maybe now I can find out. :)
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Re: Archive these games -topic

Postby Kale » Wed Sep 20, 2017 5:37 pm

BeeJay wrote:The following 2 games could probably do with archiving due to a large number of people with the same maxed out 1st place score:

http://replay.marpirc.net/r/ldrun
http://replay.marpirc.net/r/ldruna

Yes, I am aware this will also impact me as one of the people who have maxed out the score on one of these games, but rules is rules so I'm not going to complain about the "loss" of LB points. :)


I'm honestly not that keen in banning games that has a seemingly easy counter stop.
I mean it's more worrying all of the counter stops reached by Cleopatra Fortune, since it's a trick doable in the first few minutes of gameplay:

http://replay.marpirc.net/r/cleopatr
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Re: Archive these games -topic

Postby giro-X » Wed Sep 20, 2017 11:06 pm

Kale wrote:[...] it's more worrying all of the counter stops reached by Cleopatra Fortune, since it's a trick doable in the first few minutes of gameplay:

http://replay.marpirc.net/r/cleopatr


+1
And also please reconsider Exciting Animal Land Jr. (animaljr) and clones. Look how many 65s have been submitted, but also, you can test on your own.

My previous quotes on these games:
http://forums.marpirc.net/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=15945&p=62756 topic where we were discussing about archiving Neo-Bomberman (in VS mode)
and also
http://forums.marpirc.net/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=12336&p=64402
Sorry, wall of text.
giro-X wrote:I would also like to suggest to archive "Exciting Animal Land Jr." [animaljr] and clones. The max score is 65, and you have a confirm of that by viewing the settings in Service mode: you can set amount of tickets the player would win for each amount possible of points, and 65pts is the max value.
Even though the game has a bonus stage, it probably has emulation issues and it can never be unlocked (you can try with savestate and any sort of stress), so, even if it may affect the final score in some ways (but who knows, who has ever played this on real cabinet?), it still can't on MAME.

As far as I can remember, not all the credits allow you to unlock a pattern of 65 mice, but, once you find a version of MAME that gives you that on first credit, it's basically kids' game. Even if eventually no version allows a 65 at first credit, the game is still using a defined pattern, and it's not difficult at all; thus, I believe the only criteria to use here is to determine whether this game is too easy or not.

Lastly, to demonstrate than I'm not trying to discriminate any player in particular, I would suggest to archive Cleopatra Fortune. Once the counterstop stress has been published, it has been easy to copy, you just have to memorize moves in a certain order. I did that too, I admit the counterstop part doesn't display any of my skills, but I tried at least to compensate by ending the game and stashing as many Perfects as possible, rather than suiciding at level 7; even more I provided extra replays you can view outside MARP; the tied 1st place is the last of my concerns, [etc.]

Please consider, aboud animaljr, that if in the future the game is properly emulated at the phase where you win access to bonus stage, then most probably the bonus stage itself will have a set max amount of animals to smash. Not a trouble for now anyways.
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