mhavoc and it's clones

Discussion about MARP's regulation play

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Should warping(entering warp codes) be allowed for Major Havoc and all it's clones?

Poll ended at Fri Aug 08, 2003 10:42 pm

Yes, allowing warping.
8
62%
No, ban warping and play the game from level 1.
5
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Total votes : 13

Postby Q.T.Quazar » Sun Aug 03, 2003 8:44 pm

Barry said LED on/off didn't affect when he played back, so i don't know if it matters or not. i'll assume for now that it does.

thanks for the confirms, Abbe.
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Postby mahlemiut » Sun Aug 03, 2003 9:11 pm

The main difference for me in playing these back, was that the GUI had to be used. Why there is a difference there, I don't know. If you record in the console, it must be played back in the console, same for the GUI. Also, Alpha One is fine with sound on, but Major Havoc requires -nosound.
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Postby LN2 » Sun Aug 03, 2003 11:36 pm

mahlemiut wrote:Also, Alpha One is fine with sound on, but Major Havoc requires -nosound.

even that seems to be dependent on which mame you are using.

Major Havoc with sound works just fine for playback in macmame.
All of the clones do.

I have yet to find a game that wouldn't playback when using sound.
There are some including Major Havoc where the audio quality rate matters though.
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Postby LN2 » Mon Aug 04, 2003 4:49 pm

one word about Level 15 in Major Havoc....AHHHHH!!!!

geesh....I am starting to think the high scores Twin Galaxies have for Major Havoc weren't playing to level 15...but using the hand trick on level 13 so you just replay that level over and over again forever.

I actually have gotten where half the time I can complete level 13 without dying even once.

I think if I played it this way now I could maybe get 1.5+ million....but don't feel that's an honest way to play the game...and if I saw anyone submit an inp playing it that way I would start a poll to ban that trick.

I'll have to ask TG if anyone has a clue if that was the case for those scores...mainly what level did they reach. My guess is they all replayed level 13. All of those scores are from 20 years ago when TG didn't really care what playing techniques were used to get the high scores....and in most cases just not aware of the tricks.

I have started to figure out level 15 a little bit. I can get the blue key...and work my way back to get the levitation/anti-gravity shoes, but then that changes the behavior of your jumps some which makes going back through the 2 gun area again tough. I have yet to get past that with the shoes.

I have gotten past those guns without the shoes and gotten in the 1-way spot...where you must wait for ceiling to open up to jump through...but without the shoes you land on red pad which triggers those red shots....so you must have the levitation shoes before going to that 1-way area so you can avoid triggering those red shots.

I hope after that the level gets easier....it's already hard enough just to get there.

I'm guessing that yellow locked door by the shoes will require the yellow key to open that as part of your escape after triggering the reactor....otherwise that makes no sense.
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Postby Q.T.Quazar » Mon Aug 04, 2003 5:03 pm

as i said earlier, according to Jess Askey's site, 16 is the hardest level in the game. so i don't think we're out of the woods yet.

I actually have gotten where half the time I can complete level 13 without dying even once.


i'm down to about 10%. the only two situations where i die is running out of shots in the fish robot stage, or not setting up the white sparks properly when i punch the reactor.

i think i blow the warp codes more often than i die on stage 1 now.

i had a horrible time with the level 14 fighters lastnight for some reason. most of the time i was taking two deaths aginast them

for the level 14 robots, i noticed something that might be useful. when you drop down into reactoid 14, if you immediately grab the oxygen to your right and then run left and jump up, if you keep going you can levitate straight over the robot here with a heavy swing left. even if you mistime you will bonk your head halfway across, and the robot will swing by underneath you, giving you time to get up and still drop safely to the left side. this means thatyou can use your shield as a security against the robot below (who i have to drop blindly into because of -nosound) or against the gun, or against the other robot after you come out of the teleport (my preferred choice)

btw. level 13 finger trick does not work in mhavoc, only mhavoc2 and i would imagine prototype. and yes, i agree with you, that one will be an insta-ban if someone tries it.

i notice neither of us have yet found any way to get the blue key on level 13... :)
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Postby LN2 » Mon Aug 04, 2003 7:43 pm

Q.T.Quazar wrote:for the level 14 robots, i noticed something that might be useful. when you drop down into reactoid 14, if you immediately grab the oxygen to your right and then run left and jump up, if you keep going you can levitate straight over the robot here with a heavy swing left.

That's almost exactly what I'm doing already. I just land up where that first robot you are talking about is then jump over him after he makes the turn to come back my way. I'll have to try the 1 giant leap over him without even setting down to see if that's worth it....might be to save a little O2.

The biggest problem I have on Level 14 now is getting out before the O2 is gone. I have managed to get out a couple times.

In my play a bit earlier, I am close to having timing down for exiting Level 14...going back through that yellow teleport and not have the gun in your way.
btw. level 13 finger trick does not work in mhavoc, only mhavoc2 and i would imagine prototype. and yes, i agree with you, that one will be an insta-ban if someone tries it.

Well, I'm guessing those TG scores are with rev 2. I know one of the guys on that high score list. we played it together tons...and remember doing the level 13 finger trick to play level 13 over and over. We actually got good enough on level 13 where we used that just to build up 6-7 men before attacking level 14 and beyond.

I knew rev 3 was supposed to fix this...but never tested it. I guess next time I play it I'll have to try the trick in rev 3 to see what happens.

Yes, level 16 is horrible. I can't really remmeber it but know it's horrible in every aspect. You have the fighters with the 2 red bars. I think Level 17 after that though is about the same Level 13 is...so not all that bad. Level 18 was the highest I ever got back in the golden era.

I actually have gotten good at the Level 14 fighters now and 4 times out of 5 get through that without dying.
i notice neither of us have yet found any way to get the blue key on level 13... :)

I checked up on this and many things in the reactor mazes...especially those clocks...were in play during development...but as the game was refined things were closed off by either walls or the electrical charge lines etc.

it matters little anyway. The effect of the clock is to just slow things down. I think it only applies to the maze objects...you still move normal speed and O2 used up at normal speed. Given I am used to the timing for level 13 and level 14 now, to try it at a different speed I think would just be as difficult...although the timing to hit the reactor would be easier. I hate it like I'm sure you do when you do everything right then screw up the timing of hitting the reactor and then have no choice but to suicide against the sparks.

Level 13 and 14 are easy compared to 15 though. Have you gotten through the initial spinner-maze without dying yet? I have gotten a couple times where I get past all the initial dodging and shooting part...where you are going through the maze...but always die at a spot just when it's speeding up where a spinner in the maze gets me. I try and shoot it but can't....timing must be pretty tight there.

I'm also at that point trying to use keys as well for larger sensitivity and faster moves I can't do often do with my mouse cuz the analog overflow thing.

if that gets fixed I think we would do better...cuz half of my deaths are from moving too quickly so you reverse. that doesn't happen using the key input setting I have since it's a fixed value I can set just under the max...just the mouse. I mainly use the keys for landing on the mothership. I can't do those with my mouse....especially in 1 of those clones where it's way harsh on those landings.
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Postby Q.T.Quazar » Mon Aug 04, 2003 9:33 pm

I hate it like I'm sure you do when you do everything right then screw up the timing of hitting the reactor and then have no choice but to suicide against the sparks.


actually, i typically save my shield until right at the end of 13, in case i do this. depends on how my timing has worked throughout the level, but i usually jump the robot as he is coming back out the rainbow door, duck under the sparks, jump up over them, punch the reactor and then, if i've timed everything right, drop down and simply smash through the robot.

of course, if i've mistimed, i have to smash through the sparks and then hope the robot is in a place below that i can jump him. but my method eliminates a lot of unnecessary deaths on 13. 14, conversely, is pretty easy to time the sparks on. i just haven't consistently worked out the telporter timing to get out past the gun. is it halfway between sets of sparks you enter? i did it once and overwrote the damn .inp. oh, and do you take the high road out or the low road? i usually use up my shield to smash the robot before the yellow transporter--and i'm never in danger of running out of O2 on 14 for whatever reason--i get through the first gun trap with three sets of jumps. so it seems like i would be easier just to go back out the low road--but i don't know. i don't know your pattern; will have to watch your next submission.

Have you gotten through the initial spinner-maze without dying yet?


this is what i was *actually* referring to when i said 'level 15 maze' on last night's submission. which in retrospect was none too clear. the answer is NO. the best i have done is one life, and i've only done that once. i can get past the spinners fine, don't usually die there, but the maze almost always claims 2 lives, sometimes three. i've gone back to playing with the mouse at default sensitivity to avoid overflow, but it just doesn't *spin* over fast enough.

but always die at a spot just when it's speeding up where a spinner in the maze gets me. I try and shoot it but can't....timing must be pretty tight there.


strangely, i haven't been killed in the maze by a spinner yet.it's always walls. i need to figure out, however, which side of the maze is best to blast through. on 11, for ex, it's easiest just to blast through the left side of the maze. i don't know if you can do this on 15 or if it will come down to ship control.all i know is trhat i'm taking way too many deaths in this segment :(
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Postby LN2 » Mon Aug 04, 2003 9:54 pm

Q.T.Quazar wrote:duck under the sparks

duck??? I guess you just mean you go under them.
jump up over them, punch the reactor and then, if i've timed everything right, drop down and simply smash through the robot.

My O2 is normally a little tight..already down around 25-30 when I get to that...so I normally just quickly use my shield on that robot.

On level 14 I often end up wasting my shield on that "second robot" you refer to above.....and might make that my normal method cuz then you can quickly get that other O2 and proceed.

It's interesting the O2 counts down so quickly that unless O2 is quickly obtained, you really don't gain much from getting it...if anything.
is it halfway between sets of sparks you enter?

By sparks I assume you mean whatever those guns shoot... After 1 set of shots come through the teleport...the second I see that teleport start to light up again...even before I see that next set of sparks...I jump and enter it. Twice I did this where after I came out on other side I was able to quickly move to left past the gun...versus having to stay right there and jump another set of shots.
i did it once and overwrote the damn .inp. oh, and do you take the high road out or the low road?

The couple of times I have gotten out it's going in that red teleport then taking the escape rocket. I realize you can go to the left up there also through the 1-way and get that O2....extra 900 for that versus getting before the reactor I guess...hehe...but not sure of the difference in oxygen you end up with....might end up making almost no difference....cuz the fall from that O2 then up the start path takes longer than entering the escape rocket.
i usually use up my shield to smash the robot before the yellow transporter--and i'm never in danger of running out of O2 on 14 for whatever reason

yeah, the couple times O2 wasn't a factor it's where I quickly took out that 2nd robot and got that extra O2...which time saved quickly doing that versus waiting for the robot...and the O2...gives you enough time.

BTW, you mentioned above about not wanting to blindly fall down on that second robot.... It's not blind...cuz you always have the small maze radar view to see where that robot is.

Don't you use that to help judge things just off the screen that you are going to?
strangely, i haven't been killed in the maze by a spinner yet.it's always walls. i need to figure out

those flashy ones always seem to get me. I do my best to kill as many as quickly as possible so at least most of the first part of the maze doesn't get formed...then I can get at least 755 through the maze scroll without dying....then die on that one really hard spot where speed has picked up and you must do a really fast move.

I think though you might be letting more of the first part of the maze get formed which isn't good.
i don't know if you can do this on 15 or if it will come down to ship control.all i know is trhat i'm taking way too many deaths in this segment :(

It's a little bit of both..and FYI...think overall it's reversed versus how the level 11 maze turns out. There is 1 key wall you can shoot out that has you avoid one set of those tough turns....but you are moving so fast on the second half of it if you get through the first part cleanly there is no time to shoot out anymore walls so you just try and steer your way through.

I remember that being tough even with the arcade wheel that game had....but doing the fighter ones and the reactor maze control was a little easier.

I'm likely not going to have much time..if any..to play the next couple of days.

Plus...right now I was playing using 6 lives and bonus every 50k etc. so I can just see more of and get more practice on level 15....so not going for your scores right now anyway. I want to know exactly how to get to the reactor in level 15 before I start going for scores again.
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Postby Q.T.Quazar » Tue Aug 05, 2003 1:07 am

My O2 is normally a little tight..already down around 25-30 when I get to that


yeah, i've noticed that you take longer to move through a level than i do.

take your time, slowpoke. more bonus for me. :P
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Postby Q.T.Quazar » Tue Aug 05, 2003 3:11 am

well, this just gets better and better. turns out the point of this enjtire thread, while still relevant, is going to be moot for the skilled players on this game. ironically, WE will have to play through the early levels. you can earn multiple bonus lives on the early, easier reactoids and then warp ahead with the warp chain. as long as you don't die in a reactoid, you can still warp on the next wave. meaning we can complete multiple waves to stockpile lives, and then warp.

which is a headache, because the first extra life is compensated for. if you warp after red you don't get that bonus life, and the earliest it ise possible to obtain two lives is the arkanoid game at the start of wave 5 (red warp is gone by this point) and then use the yellow warp to warp ahead (extremely tricky, chances are you'll have to finish at least level 5 before warping--first life will come at the start of level 3's reactoid from 100K). and, of course, if you die you'll have to keep playing until the next bonus life or you've actually lost ground on just plain warping from the start.

this game is going to get a lot longer than i thought.

in other news, low road doesn't work on Reactoid 14--tried it and the exit is sealed--so you have to hit that red teleporter. you were right on the yellow transporter timing--jump at first sight of sparks.

still no luck on 15. right side of the maze is definitely easier to blow through--it doesn't seem to be quite a reverse of 11 but not far off--if you can hit that one protruding block about halfway up the maze on the right side it's a major advantage--skips a few things you're having problems with.

well, Rick, how are you with the early Reactoids? :|
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Postby Q.T.Quazar » Tue Aug 05, 2003 5:49 am

oh...oh wow. i took your idea and changed the dips, managed to figure out the route for 15. it's not pretty. your shield becomes a completely defensive item--you MUST turn back and get the antigrav boots after you get the blue key and you can't afford to screw up anywhere, because you have to dodge a triple spark barrier AND float around past some robots later.

then i saw 16...and i wept. :cry:

this must be the hardest game *ever*.
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Postby Chad » Tue Aug 05, 2003 10:16 am

EDIT***

btw, -noleds worked for me and i didn't use a gui :p also i can't get the latest qt rec qcn_mhavoc_1044320_wolf71u2.zip
to playback in win98 (with or with out gui) but i'll bet i can play it in xp (just as soon as i can get it restoed from a crash, windows sucks shite.

amazing discusion on major havoc by the way..
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Postby Q.T.Quazar » Tue Aug 05, 2003 12:41 pm

btw, Rick, if you or someone else wanted to start a new vote with the rule that players must complete, at minimum, the level they warp to for their score to count on Major Havoc sets, i would support that.

another go at 15 will be made tonight. i'm not optimistic about beating it anytime soon.

jump up over them, punch the reactor and then, if i've timed everything right, drop down and simply smash through the robot.



My O2 is normally a little tight..already down around 25-30 when I get to that...so I normally just quickly use my shield on that robot.



curious why you have so little O2 left on 13. my regular exit for this level is with 55+ O2. i noticed you pausing to balance on the tip of the wall on the right side of the reactoid on the first pass--don't bother. just keep floating up until you're level with the spark before the red pad and hover there, the spark will continue up and then you just whip under it. this way you hit the O2 and the key at full tilt already and don't risk clipping the ceiling, not to mention being at lower risk of hitting the spark (IMO). if you screw up and your feet don't clear the ledge, you just fall straight down and can try again. the robot is nowhere near at this time, so there's no danger.

btw, i've switched to your opening pattern on 14 (stop and jump first robot) because it's higher percentage and gives me time to check the position of the second robot, so i can save my shield for the third robot and grab the O2 more often. i tend to fall through the floor after dodging back past the yellow teleport gun anyway, so its more risk-reduction.

well, rarely dying in the maze at all now, but those ship sections...
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Postby LN2 » Wed Aug 06, 2003 12:44 am

Q.T.Quazar wrote:well, this just gets better and better. turns out the point of this enjtire thread, while still relevant, is going to be moot for the skilled players on this game. ironically, WE will have to play through the early levels. you can earn multiple bonus lives on the early,



hmmm, I'll have to try that...I guess if you get to 100k and earn an extra man then warp you can have that 1 more man for the higher levels.

Odd neither one of us realized that...although it's a lot of play for just 1-2 extra men.

I'll have to improve on level 6 and 8 to cleanly get where you have the green and aqua warps.

hmmm, if it's every 100k I wonder if you could even warp...where you get a 50k increment, so that next man is only 50k away...then warp again...repeat..then warp again...hmmm... hehe
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Postby Q.T.Quazar » Wed Aug 06, 2003 12:58 pm

which is a headache, because the first extra life is compensated for. if you warp after red you don't get that bonus life, and the earliest it ise possible to obtain two lives is the arkanoid game at the start of wave 5 (red warp is gone by this point) and then use the yellow warp to warp ahead


i don't think i got this across quite clearly enough. 1 life is not enough, as you don't get the bonus life in the warp chain then (you have to hit all warps to get the bonus life, and by the time you have enough points for the first life by not warping (100K), the red warp is gone). so you have to earn, for any advantage, at least one from the 100K and one from the arkanoid game, which, if you're playing well, happens around level 5/6.

5 is a joke, btw, but 6 i find to be trouble.

hmmm, if it's every 100k I wonder if you could even warp...where you get a 50k increment, so that next man is only 50k away...then warp again...repeat..then warp again...hmmm... hehe


i assume this would work... but youhave to think that this will be really tough to do. unless i'm mistaken that's three levels you'd have to finish without dying. maybe just two--not sure.
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