mhavoc and it's clones

Discussion about MARP's regulation play

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Should warping(entering warp codes) be allowed for Major Havoc and all it's clones?

Poll ended at Fri Aug 08, 2003 10:42 pm

Yes, allowing warping.
8
62%
No, ban warping and play the game from level 1.
5
38%
 
Total votes : 13

mhavoc and it's clones

Postby LN2 » Tue Jul 29, 2003 9:05 am

I was just noticing there are no special rules for Major Havoc and it's clones...so am I to assume using the warp codes is allowed?

I have not viewed any of the inps but it seems this is the case.

Given you can warp up to a high enough level where completing just the 1 reactor level gets you over 1 million, this doesn't seem like much of a test of playing the game versus having to start at level 1 and not allowing any warps.

In mhavoc, if you entere all warp codes you start at level 13 with 950,000 points. Even a highly skilled player playing from level 1 all the way through through level 12 will only have about 300-400k starting level 13.

I think the competition and scores for the game would be a lot more interesting and fun versus skipping 90% of the gameplay to just try and get through 1 high level for big warp points.

whatcha think?
Last edited by LN2 on Fri Aug 01, 2003 10:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby QRS » Tue Jul 29, 2003 10:16 am

The general rule on MARP (I think) is that you are allowed to warp as much as you want as long as it does not give you higher points that if you start from the beginning.

Games like Pacmania is a good examle on that. Play it from the beginning and you will get more points. That´s why warp is allowed.

I don´t know much about Major Havoc/codes etc though.

QT:What is your opinion about this game?
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Postby zlk » Tue Jul 29, 2003 4:59 pm

The levels repeat after a while so I see no point in banning the use of the warp codes. The better player will just warp and then play as many levels as their ability lets them. People can warp in other games like crystal castles and I don't see why this game should be any different.
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Postby Q.T.Quazar » Tue Jul 29, 2003 6:10 pm

QRS: i think zlk pretty much summarizes my position...this is a pretty old debate. what's holding me back right now are the crummy controls (again, mouse vs. spinner) where i'll take random stupid deaths landing my ship (of all things :( ) or hitting walls on the ship piloting levels, or just over/undercontrolling in the maze--meaning the more levels played the greater the disadvantage (i'm pretty much guessing on the landing stages because of analog sensitivity problems)

besides, there are 6 variants of Major Havoc, and three take you to different levels on maximum warp (9, 13, and rainbow 17?) so it isn't like we're always recording the same stupid level over and over.

i would say let it be. i still haven't caught Angry's MHavoc score yet, which has been up forever at MARP. rainbow stage is an absolute bitch.
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RE

Postby QRS » Tue Jul 29, 2003 6:50 pm

Well, I don´t really have a personal opinion about this. As long as we all agree, and all follow the same rules I think it is ok. As long as it does not totally ruin the game so to speak :)

More opinions folks?
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Postby LN2 » Tue Jul 29, 2003 7:00 pm

zlk wrote:The levels repeat after a while so I see no point in banning the use of the warp codes. The better player will just warp and then play as many levels as their ability lets them. People can warp in other games like crystal castles and I don't see why this game should be any different.

if people where actually playing those high levels I would agree..but look at the high scores for mhavoc and the clones. there are only a couple scores where the player is actually getting to those higher levels.

I could just use the warp codes and complete that 1 level...and have first place on half of the clones and 2nd place on the others....for not even really playing it...but just warping.

That doesn't seem right to me.

As far as score...I don't think you can get a score per level in mhavoc playing it from the beginning that matches what you get from warping.

I find the game very hard in MAME cuz the analog overflow issue. hehe
I end up doing a move a little too fast and the guy doesn't move or goes the other way....almost always means death...or having to waste your shield.

The competition IMHO would mean more if you could just play from level 1.

if many were getting more than 1.3-1.4 million then I would agree with the above that warping doesn't mean much...but given most scores are well under 1.2 million(I think that's the score you get for doing all of the warp codes...can't remember) it just means those players didn't know the later warp codes...or found that later level so difficult they just started playing from an earlier level.

pacmania I agree...cuz it's not all that hard to get through those early levels and pigout. Try starting from level 1 and playing up through level 13....it's not easy at all. it requires you have a lot more knowledge of all the levels and skill to execute.

Anyone can get lucky and with 3 men survive through playing 1 high level to get all those warp points.
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Postby Q.T.Quazar » Tue Jul 29, 2003 10:14 pm

for your info, Rick:

I could just use the warp codes and complete that 1 level...and have first place on half of the clones and 2nd place on the others....for not even really playing it...but just warping.


well, you're welcome to try. btw, you have to play the mhavoc games without sound, another little perk.

my .inps:

alphaone (no shields in this game, 3 lives): reactoid 9&10 completed
alphaona (no shields in this game, 5 lives): reactoid 9&10 completed
mhavoc2 (3 lives): reactoid 13 completed
mhavocp (? lives): reactoid 9-11 completed (crashes)
mhavoc (3 lives): reactoid 13 completed
mhavocrv (5 lives): reactoid 21 completed

if it's so easy to do, then do it. Angry and I are the only ones at MARP to make it through level 13. Donut has, I believe, finished level 9 in a few of his .inps. I would be more than appreciative for someone to show me if its even possible to get the damn blue key on Level 13 so I didn't die every time, or if it's just a decoy and you have to go ack out past the gun.

this, to me, is one of those situations like gravitar, where everyone says "oh, that game is so easy" because there's a known trick--in gravitar's case, you can move in through the vector joints. and anyone who has actually played it thinks riiiiiiiiight. try doing that without an arcade spinner on a heavy gravity planet. same thing with mhavoc--try getting refined movement out of whatever control you might use.

but hey, feel free to prove me wrong. lots of points up for grabs. :) personally, i would rather watch players playing and completing the harder levels than seeing a bevy of people dying in the shooter phases, which is where the mhavoc deaths will come.

incidentally, as to QRS's earlier post, there is no rule whatsoever about warping. basically, you would have to relook at a lot of games including pretty much every mid-80s vector game.

as far as i'm concerned, it's up to the player what level of difficulty they can handle.
Last edited by Q.T.Quazar on Wed Jul 30, 2003 10:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby QRS » Tue Jul 29, 2003 11:22 pm

My point is not that you have to be good or something like that. My only concern is that people gain advantage scorewise or simular by warping than to start from the beginning. The scores might be hard to compare to eachother or maybe even easier than they look if you look at the score.


I think most of the times you don´t get that advantage (example Bankpanic and Pacmania)

I have no idea about this game though( Mostly because I can´t playback any of the top scores).

Btw, I don´t see anything wrong by playing a game from the beginning. On most games you have to do that :) If people think it is dull, I can give you hundreds of more examples of more boring things to watch... Some leeching tactics are soo boring to watch that you hit f10 and wait until its over :)

Let´s continue to discuss this so we can set a rule for those kind of games. Case to case or a general rule. If the public think it is ok with warping etc, it will of course continue to be allowed.

Anyway let´s hear more opinions about this guys!!
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Postby LN2 » Wed Jul 30, 2003 12:27 am

Q.T.Quazar wrote:for your info, Rick:

well, you're welcome to try. btw, you have to play the mhavoc games without sound, another little perk.

I'll have to try this in macmame..cuz other games guys have reported on as only correctly playing back with no sound hasn't been an issue I have seen yet in macmame.

I had played mhavoc a couple times last summer but not sure if I tested inp playback. I'll be sure to do that before I really play it cuz I can't see playing it without sound.

alphaone (no shields in this game, 3 lives): reactor 9 completed
alphaona (no shields in this game, 5 lives): reactor 9&10 completed
mhavoc2 (3 lives): reactor 13 completed
mhavocp (? lives): reactor 9&10 completed
mhavoc (3 lives): reactor 13 completed
mhavocrv (5 lives): reactor 17 haha you have to be kidding me. good luck.

are you starting from level 1 and playing all the way up there? or warping? if starting from level 1 those are pretty impressive. I used to be able to do that with the arcade version after spending tons of money playing it to memorize the levels....but not sure I have the level of control in MAME I need to even make it worth trying. I think in the arcades level 18 was the highest I ever got...so yes I know it loops back there.

Level 9 with no shield use? damn...I remember a couple levels where my "pattern" for getting through it involved using my shield to take out a strategic spark....or take one out to then hog up more O2. :P

I'll have to play with adjusting the sensitivity more I guess but it seems all too easy to screw up just from lack of control. I was dying just trying to land on that landing pad....my mouse wasn't setup where I could do it on the later levels.

same thing with mhavoc--try getting refined movement out of whatever control you might use.

no..you missed the point. I can enter warp code numbers right at the start of the game to start at level 13....get through that 1 level...and beat most of the scores submitted.

Now if you have played it starting at level 1 and played all the levels up to that point...you are da-man!....if you warped...I'm confused why for the above clones you have gotten to various levels. Are the warp codes different in the clones or a couple clones have no warp? Don't take time to answer those...I can see for myself when I try and play them.
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Postby Q.T.Quazar » Wed Jul 30, 2003 12:36 am

all are warping. as i said, if you can do it, the points are yours.

i'm betting you can't.

;)

p.s. Just finished rainbow level (22). YAY!
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Postby LN2 » Wed Jul 30, 2003 2:22 am

Q.T.Quazar wrote:i'm betting you can't.

betting I can't what? get through level 13? I'm guessing you are just trying to egg me on to play it some. :P

If I can get my mouse sens tuned correctly where I can actually land on the landing pad then I'll have little problem...as I actually remember level 13 fairly well.

level 22 ehh? no...would take a lot of playing for me to get that far.
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Postby Weehawk » Wed Jul 30, 2003 2:35 pm

I thought the general rule was that warping is allowed as long as it's not dependent on the results of a previous game. (Like Millipede or Tempest)

That would put Major Havoc in sort of a gray area as one only uses a single credit technically, but using information (codes) that are given in previous games.

Are there any other arcade machines that use password-type codes like this? Most home console games do, but I can't think of any other arcade games besides this one.

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Postby LN2 » Wed Jul 30, 2003 3:48 pm

A couple of the Playchoice games...since they are just NES games...have the continue codes etc. They are not allowed to be used.
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Postby LN2 » Fri Aug 01, 2003 1:24 am

Q.T.Quazar wrote:what's holding me back right now are the crummy controls (again, mouse vs. spinner) where i'll take random stupid deaths landing my ship

I had that problem but found an easy solution.

For landing the ship on the platform on the later levels, I just use the keys instead of the mouse. The keys allow you to move a lot faster than the mouse evidently. The mouse is great for precise control getting through the mazes to the reactor...and doing the first part of fighter thing...but keys good for landing on platform.

Also, you seem to not be able to get the inps to playback correctly with sound?

I just played 4 different variants of mhavoc...a couple beating or very close to your scores with just a couple tries. :P and recorded using macmame 0.71.2.1 and sound at 11 Khz and playing back the inp works just fine. I did find if I change the audio setting to 22 Khz when recorded at 11KHz it loses sync...so sound consistency is important.

The clones where you don't have a shield to use are a bitch. it's nice having that use of 1 shield to get rid of 1 enemy in the maze to make things a lot easier.

BTW, for level 13, do you remember how to get outside of the maze to get that blue key to open up and touch that clock? I can likely figure it out again.....cuz I know I used to get that.

I use 11 KHz cuz the sounds are simple anyway and to help performance. I'm already using frameskip 6 just to make sure it stays at 100% everywhere. That still allows for enough control in the game.

This game might be finicky for frameskip also so if you were using automatic frameskipping try a manually set value. Maybe with sound off you are able to play at 100% speed with frameskip 0...whereas with sound you aren't getting 100% unless a little frameskip is being used...and it's that that maybe is screwing with your inp playback..not using sound itself.

Experiment around with it a little bit. Sound makes a big difference in a few spots where you can time things based on audio clues also...like those robot things shooting...and level 13 timing your jumps over those shots from that gun.

it took me a few times..with some sensitivity adjustments totune my mouse correctly before I cleared level 13 ok. That level actually isn't as hard as I remember it. What always got me in that game wasn't the reactor maze part though, but that first part where you still are in your fighter/spaceship....especially the ones where those red bar things also are coming at you along with enemy fighter planes coming and shooting at you.
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Postby LN2 » Fri Aug 01, 2003 10:08 am

In regards to warping in this game again.

QRS, you end up getting a lot more points by warping than you can get even if a master class player at this game and can play all the way up to those high levels.

Most levels you can only get about 30k. A few levels you can get more like 60-70k.

However, warping gives you a lot more than that.

For example, the regular mhavoc, you can warp to level 13 and start with 950,000 points.

At only 30k for most levels and 60-70k for a couple, you can easily see you far way short of reaching 950,000 through level 12.

There really isn't much in the way of leeching points either. You can leech a couple thousand here and there by delaying getting the oxygen until on your way out where you get more points for it. You can make sure you use your shield to kill off an enemy for 1000 points before exiting the level.

The high scores for mhavoc(I actually just set a new high score by 300 points for it...will submit it later...want to see if playback compatible with pc-mames...) complete level 13, and get partly through level 14...but that's it. Oh...a whole 1.5 levels played...about a 3 minute game...with 1 minute used for entering the warp codes. :P

In mhavocrv, it's even worse...cuz you can warp much higher...and start at level 22 with 1,450,000 points. Most of the high scores don't complete level 22....they don't even get to the reactor.

I'm guessing the top 1-2 scores did manage to get to level 23 though.

Oh wow...1 whole level played.

This is hardly a test....plus even if you don't get squat you get those warp points without even having to do anything after warping. Right now many could just get those warp codes, record an inp entering them...then get pretty good points.

For others that get a little bit through the level, they get 90+% of the highest score with no effort.

Now, if the game was required to be started from level 1. Then you get to play several levels....and get to see who is really more skilled at the game. Plus differences would mean more cuz then you would be looking at perhaps the difference between 400k and 450k points....which is a larger percentage difference versus 1.45 and 1.5 million.

I think for fun and competition on mhavoc and it's clones we should really consider and perhaps poll if this should be played from level 1.

The high scores posted here don't display much skill for others to view anyway...given only 1 or 2 levels at the most are played.

it also makes it a lot more fun to play and try and set scores for...cuz you get to go through those earlier levels.

I have beaten the high score for a couple of these mhavoc scores already. I only did about 5-10 attempts to get them...and that's after not playing the game in ages...so just had to relearn the level.

So cmon guys...let's be gamers and actually set this rule for this game so it's actually a cool game to play again for competition!
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