K6 - Round 6 - Battle Flip Shot

Discussion about the MAME Championships
http://sawys.ifrance.com/K7.htm

Moderator: Knockout Coordinators

User avatar
INNUENDO
MARPaltunnel Wrists
MARPaltunnel Wrists
Posts: 567
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2002 12:49 am
Location: Brasília, Brasil
Contact:

Post by INNUENDO » Fri Nov 16, 2007 9:53 am

Description of my inp:

K6.

Valter, look the topic at the MARPIRC. NotMan is very funny!!!

Again, you are´n a flea!!! :)

The true score is 122.980, but I´m with problems to upload the inps. :(

Guys, it´s the second time. I don´t know what´s happening. Look, please:


RESULTS
./inp/c/d/5/rsm_flipshot_122990_wolf106.zip already exists; did you upload it already?


correct the bad stuff and resubmit, or whinge to Zwaxy


But don´t appears at the LOADS page. May I send my inps using this forum sometimes?

Sorry my double post.
Attachments
flipshot_122980.zip
122.980
(26.89 KiB) Downloaded 126 times
Long life to good games

JLr-DF
Button Masher
Button Masher
Posts: 27
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2002 8:43 am
Location: Brasília, Brazil
Contact:

Brazil!

Post by JLr-DF » Fri Nov 16, 2007 10:50 am

For me is very good see two brazilian in a semi-final. Innuendo and Valter are exclent player.
Good luck for Inneundo and Valter. For BBH and Redstar too :).

User avatar
Chad
Tournament Coordinator
Posts: 4463
Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2002 3:15 pm
Location: calif

Post by Chad » Fri Nov 16, 2007 11:19 am

BBH wrote:Chad, what exactly has changed in this game in terms of emulation that would make it "harder"? For me it seems quite the opposite... granted, I've never played it that much in the past, but I never finished it when I tried on older versions so I'm probably missing something.
I said that too soon. I remember playing it in the mame80 (or maybe a little earlier) range and it seemed like the opponents were faster and was just figuring it carried on (or maybe i just played it with out my favorite joystick), but now with wolf106 and my favorite controler it seems about the same as it was.

Good job Innuendo, keep on moving, because i think the games internal high score table will be finally be breached by a player in this tournament :)
-skito

User avatar
INNUENDO
MARPaltunnel Wrists
MARPaltunnel Wrists
Posts: 567
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2002 12:49 am
Location: Brasília, Brasil
Contact:

Post by INNUENDO » Fri Nov 16, 2007 11:30 am

Chad wrote: Good job Innuendo, keep on moving, because i think the games internal high score table will be finally be breached by a player in this tournament :)
Thank you, Chad. This game is very difficult. Sometimes is more easy and after get hard... I played too much and I don´t have a way to do more points. I´ll play more in evening.

Seeing you playing, it seems very easy game, but playing... (*sigh). :(
Long life to good games

User avatar
BBH
Editor
Posts: 1564
Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2002 7:06 am
Location: Portland, Oregon
Contact:

Post by BBH » Fri Nov 16, 2007 11:41 pm

gameboy9 wrote:Awww come on! It's a wonderful game! Actually, I'm rooting for you and Innuendo. Because... ho boy... I would love the grand final... oh yes I would... (w/o giving away secrets... and I mean it in a NON-torturous way :) )
hoo boy. Well hopefully I get to see what you have in mind :P

Anyway, I wouldn't say it's a "wonderful" game because there's always been something about it that just... didn't click with me. I'm not sure what. I'm enjoying it a LITTLE bit more than I have in the past, so I don't think it's a horrible choice for the tournament.
Chad wrote:because i think the games internal high score table will be finally be breached by a player in this tournament :)
It's very, very, very unlikely that anyone will beat the game's default high score of 450,000.

Why? Well, let's think about it. There are 6 stages in the game. To get 450k, you'd have to average 75k on each stage. I don't know how well everyone else is doing, but I can't even remember getting 70k on a stage. I may have gotten 60k+, but definitely not 70. Let's assume that all 12 rounds are played perfectly. You'd also need a really fast time bonus, so let's have the time bonus at 75 seconds. 6000 for targets + 7500 time bonus * 2 = 27000 from gameplay. From the stage bonus you'd be getting 12000 target bonus, 10000 perfect bonus, and 10000 straight bonus = 32000 stage bonus. So that's 59,000 right there. Obviously the rest of the points come from the targets themselves... and this is where things get complicated.

I do not understand what determines how many points each target is worth. You can get from 30 points to 6000 points for destroying one of the opponent's targets, or anywhere in-between, as the game chooses some awfully arbitary numbers to award "random" amounts for. The problem of course is that at this point, I don't know how it determines how many points each target is worth. It could be any of a variety of factors, or it could indeed be completely random. But the presence of 6000-point targets does indeed make it possible to bring the total score for one stage up over 75k. In theory. But remember that this theory also involves getting Perfects on every stage, and... well, that's pretty hard.

How high will scores go in this round in relation to the game's ridiculous high score ranking table? Who knows. 350k? Definitely doable with very few mistakes in the rounds. 400k? Mmmm... fairly unlikely, but I wouldn't rule it out. 450k? Only if someone figures out what the deal is with the "random" score targets. (I'm not going to say that 450k is completely impossible, since certain people out there take much delight in quoting me whenever I say something about a game is "impossible")

Of course the ultimate answer to the question "How did they expect anyone to get 450k and beat the default high score?" is pretty simple. Your score stays intact for 2P Vs. play too. When another player challenges you your score keeps going, and you will receive bonuses and all that for matches that you win. It looks like losing a match and getting your win streak cut short will instantly wipe out your score. So if you have a lot of people to play against, get enough wins and 450k can be beaten. That's not too unreasonable in an arcade environment if other people actually play the game, but it's a bit silly to set a default score so high that it can be beaten ONLY through vs. play against humans. (King of Fighters '94 suffers from a similar issue - its default high score is 560,000, and the high score on MARP is 359k)

Of course, all this is meaningless since MARP (and K6) is one-credit play against the CPU. But hopefully it was kinda interesting :P

User avatar
Chad
Tournament Coordinator
Posts: 4463
Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2002 3:15 pm
Location: calif

Post by Chad » Sat Nov 17, 2007 12:02 am

yep, you're analysis is spot on as usual. And by breach i didn't mean that the whale would clear the stratosphere, just move up into the fresh air a little higher.

Targets are random, but sometimes i know I'm going to get the 6000 or not, but don't ask me to bet on it, it's almost like if you know you are going to get the replay to work in Food Fight. The shot has to be good enough and not too good and you can't have gotten a 6000 in the previous shot kind of thing. 60k average is doable, maybe 50k on the last level, so maybe 350k is probably a pratical max on single cpu play.
-skito

User avatar
BBH
Editor
Posts: 1564
Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2002 7:06 am
Location: Portland, Oregon
Contact:

Post by BBH » Sat Nov 17, 2007 12:24 am

Chad wrote:yep, you're analysis is spot on as usual. And by breach i didn't mean that the whale would clear the stratosphere, just move up into the fresh air a little higher.
Oh, ok :)
Targets are random, but sometimes i know I'm going to get the 6000 or not, but don't ask me to bet on it, it's almost like if you know you are going to get the replay to work in Food Fight. The shot has to be good enough and not too good and you can't have gotten a 6000 in the previous shot kind of thing. 60k average is doable, maybe 50k on the last level, so maybe 350k is probably a pratical max on single cpu play.
I have a couple guesses on what could cause higher target scores, but I'm not totally sure so I need to investigate it further.

60k on the last stage too isn't too unreasonable. I've come 1 target away from getting a Perfect on some rounds of the last stage, but blown it of course. I'm having the most trouble with the 5th stage at the moment, I think.

User avatar
INNUENDO
MARPaltunnel Wrists
MARPaltunnel Wrists
Posts: 567
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2002 12:49 am
Location: Brasília, Brasil
Contact:

Post by INNUENDO » Sat Nov 17, 2007 12:45 am

60k on the last stage too isn't too unreasonable. I've come 1 target away from getting a Perfect on some rounds of the last stage, but blown it of course. I'm having the most trouble with the 5th stage at the moment, I think.
My trouble is stage 3. I hate that stupid Mr. Justice. Blargh!!! :evil:

EDIT: If you don´t have mental problems, watch this replay. I had the chance to do more than 310.000. Look where I lost!!! F*CK!!!
Attachments
flipshot_spend.zip
almost giving up...
(47.87 KiB) Downloaded 129 times
Long life to good games

User avatar
Phil Lamat
Regulation Coordinator
Posts: 1996
Joined: Wed Mar 06, 2002 9:19 am

Post by Phil Lamat » Sat Nov 17, 2007 6:08 am

No matter to deal with few ties and play more games, like double ko in sf2 ?

User avatar
BBH
Editor
Posts: 1564
Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2002 7:06 am
Location: Portland, Oregon
Contact:

Post by BBH » Sat Nov 17, 2007 6:17 am

Wow INNUENDO, 79k on the first stage! You had such a good start :\

Phil Lamat wrote:No matter to deal with few ties and play more games, like double ko in sf2 ?
Giving up a round means losing the 10k Straight bonus.

It is theoretically possible to get more than 10k by getting more points on the targets on the round you lost, but... hmm.

Edit: Well, whaddya know? I've figured out a lot about how the game determines the score for each individual target. It is most definitely *NOT* random. I don't think I'm quite ready to make all my findings public just yet, though :)

User avatar
gameboy9
MARP Seer
MARP Seer
Posts: 683
Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2002 3:31 pm
Location: Pennsylvania, USA
Contact:

Post by gameboy9 » Sat Nov 17, 2007 10:01 am

BBH wrote: Edit: Well, whaddya know? I've figured out a lot about how the game determines the score for each individual target. It is most definitely *NOT* random. I don't think I'm quite ready to make all my findings public just yet, though :)
Well I can't give you the precise scoring, but I can at least try to give you a hint:

I BELIEVE that if you go back and forth with your opponent a lot, you get a target score boost. I believe that if you hit a target with your special ability, you get a bonus. I think the center targets get more points than the side targets by default. Finally, I think you get a bonus if you hit a target by hitting a side wall first.
Gameboy9 - Founder and coordinator of MARP Time Trials and Olympiad
Founder - Home Action Replay Page - http://www.homeactionreplay.org
http://gameboy9.marpirc.net

User avatar
Chad
Tournament Coordinator
Posts: 4463
Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2002 3:15 pm
Location: calif

Post by Chad » Sat Nov 17, 2007 10:34 am

gameboy9 wrote:
BBH wrote: Edit: Well, whaddya know? I've figured out a lot about how the game determines the score for each individual target. It is most definitely *NOT* random. I don't think I'm quite ready to make all my findings public just yet, though :)
Well I can't give you the precise scoring, but I can at least try to give you a hint:

I BELIEVE that if you go back and forth with your opponent a lot, you get a target score boost. I believe that if you hit a target with your special ability, you get a bonus. I think the center targets get more points than the side targets by default. Finally, I think you get a bonus if you hit a target by hitting a side wall first.
I can't wait to see bbh's next recording if he's really figured it out! I'm 90% sure that special ability hitting, hitting side walls first or center targes are more has not a direct effect on the maximizing of the bonus. I've gotten 10 and 6000 from straight shots and shots that have hit a side wall and shots in the middle and sides. Well at least from what i can remember. My guess is that it's a timing thing where it depends on the score or position or movement of the player(s).
-skito

User avatar
INNUENDO
MARPaltunnel Wrists
MARPaltunnel Wrists
Posts: 567
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2002 12:49 am
Location: Brasília, Brasil
Contact:

Post by INNUENDO » Sat Nov 17, 2007 3:10 pm

BBH wrote:Wow INNUENDO, 79k on the first stage! You had such a good start :\
Yes, BBH... I lost the opportunity, and I can´t do this again till now. I have more than 10h:30m playing. I think it´s time to leave the game for some days.

Well, I used the cheat to see how many points are possible to do, without losing targets. The result is:
Attachments
flip0001.jpg
more than 530.000
flip0001.jpg (42.76 KiB) Viewed 3356 times
Long life to good games

User avatar
Chad
Tournament Coordinator
Posts: 4463
Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2002 3:15 pm
Location: calif

Post by Chad » Sat Nov 17, 2007 3:23 pm

wow, that's seems really high for a one player game even with no lost targets? was it only 6 opponents???? amazing Innuendo!
-skito

User avatar
INNUENDO
MARPaltunnel Wrists
MARPaltunnel Wrists
Posts: 567
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2002 12:49 am
Location: Brasília, Brasil
Contact:

Post by INNUENDO » Sat Nov 17, 2007 4:56 pm

Chad wrote:wow, that's seems really high for a one player game even with no lost targets? was it only 6 opponents???? amazing Innuendo!
Was a simple test using the cheat.dat file, Chad.

But something was very funny. I getted (is right?) many 6.000 pts in the targets.

And the high score of REDSTAR is amazing!! More than 360.000pts!! Congrats to him.

This is a great challenge. But isn´t my kind of game. ;(
Long life to good games

Post Reply