The "On Deck" game

Golden Era Game of the Week
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Postby Weehawk » Sat Jun 04, 2005 2:17 am

So, how would it play out if:

1) You could only shoot 1 parachute in between shooting planes.

2) You could only shoot one bomber in between shooting planes.

3) Once the mothership appeared you had to kill it before shooting more than 10 more planes (or 20 or whatever)

?
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Postby TRB_MetroidTeam » Sat Jun 04, 2005 2:24 am

Weehawk wrote:So, how would it play out if:

1) You could only shoot 1 parachute in between shooting planes.

2) You could only shoot one bomber in between shooting planes.

3) Once the mothership appeared you had to kill it before shooting more than 10 more planes (or 20 or whatever)

?

Using 1 + 2 will not avoid leeching IMO. Something will exists still.
Would be better if the "3" use "time" instead "number of planes"... maybe 20 or 15 seconds (sometimes I need a lot of seconds to defeat the motherboard, for sure!)
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Postby TRB_MetroidTeam » Sat Jun 04, 2005 2:37 am

TRB_MetroidTeam wrote:...My current best at MARP, I played level 2 straight up, catching a lot of parachutes... however I dont played it to INFINITE leeching (if I want, I think is possible just catch parachutes and shot minimum or nothing other planes). IMO this (go up) is the best way to survive the level 2 without deaths! So I think I don't leeched at the level 2 BEFORE the "boss" (called "motherboard" here). Of course I used leech at boss 1 and boss 2, just due TGTS.

So, just watching my level 2 (from start, still the parachute's end / the boss), I don't leeched... and this question is very hard to someone (John) to decide.

Please watch my input and answer if the part I wrote below is banned or not. Is it?
http://marp.retrogames.com/inp/e/4/d/tr ... wolf78.zip[/quote]
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Postby Zhorik » Sat Jun 04, 2005 2:52 am

Weehawk wrote:So, how would it play out if:

1) You could only shoot 1 parachute in between shooting planes.

2) You could only shoot one bomber in between shooting planes.

3) Once the mothership appeared you had to kill it before shooting more than 10 more planes (or 20 or whatever)

?


Minor correction, you don't shoot the parachutes, you run into them to collect them.

Also you have to shoot quite a few planes (I don't know exactly how many but I think its close to 50) to get the boss/mothership to appear, so you could still do a LOT of leeching (probable ideal of like 45 x 5K = 225K, so for each of levels 1 and 2 on the first 2 cycles is potentially 900K). It would also make verifying an INP very difficult and tedious. If imposing an outside limit, I think a time limit is better than counting in game actions.

For a boss/mothership time limit I think you'd want at least 30 seconds since some times it takes a while to line up a safe shot. If using a time limit I think it would be easier just to make it per level. 5 minutes is way more than you'd need per level; it would encourage leeching right up to the time limit and probably wouldn't really be valid for MARP submissions due to leeching. Different levels in a cycle might warrant different time limits since they play quite differently.

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Postby TRB_MetroidTeam » Sat Jun 04, 2005 2:59 am

Zhorik wrote:Minor correction, you don't shoot the parachutes, you run into them to collect them.

Also you have to shoot quite a few planes (I don't know exactly how many but I think its close to 50) to get the boss/mothership to appear, so you could still do a LOT of leeching (probable ideal of like 45 x 5K = 225K, so for each of levels 1 and 2 on the first 2 cycles is potentially 900K). It would also make verifying an INP very difficult and tedious. If imposing an outside limit, I think a time limit is better than counting in game actions.

For a boss/mothership time limit I think you'd want at least 30 seconds since some times it takes a while to line up a safe shot. If using a time limit I think it would be easier just to make it per level. 5 minutes is way more than you'd need per level; it would encourage leeching right up to the time limit and probably wouldn't really be valid for MARP submissions due to leeching. Different levels in a cycle might warrant different time limits since they play quite differently.

-gastrainga

Agree. Agree. Agree.

Zhorik wrote:Different levels in a cycle might warrant different time limits since they play quite differently.

Hmmm... So wich will be the solution??? :roll:
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Postby Zhorik » Sat Jun 04, 2005 3:07 am

For reference, I watched the top 3 INPs for Time Pilot at MARP to see how far they got on 5 men, and they reached levels 10 (JSW), 9 (Seance), and 10 (Ben Jos) respectively.
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Postby Weehawk » Sat Jun 04, 2005 3:48 am

Given the following constraints:

1) GEGOTW submissions must be legal for MARP Regulation play.

2) If at all possible, I want to avoid using time as a limiting factor.

What would our best options be?
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Postby The TJT » Sat Jun 04, 2005 8:46 pm

Is there a problem with current marp rules then?
Hard to come up with better rules, because nature of the game.

...This has been discussed at regulation forum not so long time ago.
Mame default settings are allowed at marp. No leeching.

Weehawk wrote:Given the following constraints:
1) GEGOTW submissions must be legal for MARP Regulation play.

Marp rules are against leeching. May it be parachute scabbing or plain plane shooting...

If this game would be tracked by stage reached...that would not take leeching problem away completely...because someone could leech points, that would give a good reserve of ships...which would help get at later stages.

Also limiting [time/parachutes/planes] per stage seems a bit artificial solution.
I'd hate to start clocking or counting stuff, when replaying an inp

You should know yourself when you're leeching or not, honestly. It's quite easy to spot leeching when playbacking too, if you have played the game a bit.

2) If at all possible, I want to avoid using time as a limiting factor.
What would our best options be?


If you do want to change TP rules for marp...then that discussion should be at viewtopic.php?t=11929

For GEGOTW, it's your choice if you want to use harder than marp rules...ex time limit or TG settings.

(IMO, possible semi-marathon is not so bad thing, make the buggers earn their money ;) )
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Postby Weehawk » Sat Jun 04, 2005 9:20 pm

TRB_MetroidTeam wrote:Please watch my input and answer if the part I wrote below is banned or not. Is it?
http://marp.retrogames.com/inp/e/4/d/tr ... wolf78.zip

You appear to be deliberately avoiding killing the mothership/boss on Level 2.

The Special Rules for the game only mention "parachute scabbing", but I would say you are in violation of MARP Rule 2h which reads, in pertinent part:

"...you must keep moving to complete a level."

To repeat my question:

Weehawk wrote:Given the following constraints:

1) GEGOTW submissions must be legal for MARP Regulation play.

2) If at all possible, I want to avoid using time as a limiting factor.

What would our best options be?


That is, in terms of setting objective criteria to require progressive play.

If none are palatable, I have no problem with leaving the question subjective and judging adherence to Rule 2h myself in each case.
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Postby Zhorik » Sun Jun 05, 2005 2:32 am

The TJT wrote:Is there a problem with current marp rules then?
Hard to come up with better rules, because nature of the game.

...This has been discussed at regulation forum not so long time ago.
Mame default settings are allowed at marp. No leeching.

Weehawk wrote:Given the following constraints:
1) GEGOTW submissions must be legal for MARP Regulation play.

Marp rules are against leeching. May it be parachute scabbing or plain plane shooting...

If this game would be tracked by stage reached...that would not take leeching problem away completely...because someone could leech points, that would give a good reserve of ships...which would help get at later stages.

Also limiting [time/parachutes/planes] per stage seems a bit artificial solution.
I'd hate to start clocking or counting stuff, when replaying an inp

You should know yourself when you're leeching or not, honestly. It's quite easy to spot leeching when playbacking too, if you have played the game a bit.


I agree that if you have unlimited lives, you can leech to get more lives, even if scoring is based on level reached. That was the main reason I proposed 5 men only. "5 men only" also helps to limit game length, which IMO is nice for competitions (both for players and verifiers). Its also got precedent as tournament settings on many other games (e.g. Robotron, Joust, Q*bert). And while you can't set the game to only five men, its pretty easy to verify scores (if you can count to 5 :? ). Artificial time limits would be a pain to verify. I've heard that Jeff Peters could marathon Time Pilot on factory settings without any leeching (although I'm a bit skeptical), so "5 men only" also heads off any potential marathoning.

I challenge the assertion that it is easy to see and judge leeching on the game. Attached is a zip file which includes a number of recordings for the first level (using Wolf95). The file timepltn.inp represents playing the first level as fast as possible, while still targeting all squadrons that come out and collecting all parachutes that come along. It only scores 32,400. There are also 6 other recordings that use a variety of different tactics to try and press point on the level. They score between 56,000 and 119,100. None of them involve infinite leeching tactics. I find it unlikely that we (much less all other parties) would agree on which ones constitute illegal leeching.

The TJT wrote:
Weehawk wrote:2) If at all possible, I want to avoid using time as a limiting factor.
What would our best options be?


If you do want to change TP rules for marp...then that discussion should be at viewtopic.php?t=11929

For GEGOTW, it's your choice if you want to use harder than marp rules...ex time limit or TG settings.

(IMO, possible semi-marathon is not so bad thing, make the buggers earn their money ;) )


No one was discussing changing MARP rules for TP, this discussion is only for what rules will be used for next week's GEGOTW competition (and hopefully may set a precedent for TG).

-gastrainga
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Postby Weehawk » Sun Jun 05, 2005 4:05 am

Zhorik wrote:I've heard that Jeff Peters could marathon Time Pilot on factory settings without any leeching (although I'm a bit skeptical)

Might be a good opportunity to test this.

Zhorik wrote:I challenge the assertion that it is easy to see and judge leeching on the game.

I would say that if I cannot see it, it is not in violation.

Zhorik wrote:I find it unlikely that we (much less all other parties) would agree on which ones constitute illegal leeching.

This is why I suggested objective criteria, but no discussion has followed along these lines.

To address each inp Zhorik attached:

timeplt1: Deliberately slow play, but that is not a violation of 2h.

timeplt2: I see no problem there.

timeplt3: I don't have a clue what I'm supposed to be questioning about this.

timeplt4: No problem

timeplt5: No problem

timeplt6: There is an instance where two parachutes are collected without shooting any planes in between. This would obviously fail any objective criterion set for minimum number of planes which must be shot in between, but subjectively I would not DQ this recording based on 2h.
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Postby sampras » Sun Jun 05, 2005 5:47 am

Idea: for the GEGOTW only count level reached and only 3 or 5 lives...

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Postby Zhorik » Mon Jun 06, 2005 1:01 am

Weehawk wrote:
Zhorik wrote:I've heard that Jeff Peters could marathon Time Pilot on factory settings without any leeching (although I'm a bit skeptical)

Might be a good opportunity to test this.

Zhorik wrote:I challenge the assertion that it is easy to see and judge leeching on the game.

I would say that if I cannot see it, it is not in violation.

Zhorik wrote:I find it unlikely that we (much less all other parties) would agree on which ones constitute illegal leeching.

This is why I suggested objective criteria, but no discussion has followed along these lines.

To address each inp Zhorik attached:

timeplt1: Deliberately slow play, but that is not a violation of 2h.

timeplt2: I see no problem there.

timeplt3: I don't have a clue what I'm supposed to be questioning about this.

timeplt4: No problem

timeplt5: No problem

timeplt6: There is an instance where two parachutes are collected without shooting any planes in between. This would obviously fail any objective criterion set for minimum number of planes which must be shot in between, but subjectively I would not DQ this recording based on 2h.


Here is what were the "slow play" tactics I used on the recordings:

timeplt1: 119100 - Always shooting at least one plane between picking up parachutes, but trying to limit it to one to maximize number of parachutes. Died once. Theoretically probably close to 250K is possible on a single level. I've practiced this a bit more and gotten over 150K.

timeplt2: 65300 - Only shooting at squadrons and collecting parachutes. Trying not to shoot individual planes since they score lower than squadrons. Note: Killing squadrons counts as kills towards the end of level.

timeplt3: 63400 - Firing continuously, but trying not to shoot anything to maximize the number of parachutes. Picking up as many parachutes as possible along the way.

timeplt4: 56000 - Firing continuously in an arc pattern, but trying to only hit squadrons and collect parachutes. Also stopped shooting right before triggering mothership to make sure I got one more parachute. This is pretty close to the way I normally play this level.

timeplt5: 66600 - Firing continuously, but in bursts of 3 and trying not to actually shoot anything to maximize the number of parachutes.

timeplt6: 85100 - Only shooting at squadrons and collecting parachutes. Squadrons came out less frequently than in timeplt2 so score is higher, but I targetted every squadron that came out.

timepltn 32400 - Clearing level as quickly as possibly, killing all squadrons and collecting all parachutes along the way.

Oh, and on most of these I took an extra couple of passes before taking out the boss/mothership to squeeze in a few extra points.

In my opinion 2,3,4 and 6 are definitely ok. I'm not so sure about 1 and 5. If 1 is allowed, I'm sure that it is the best method to maximize points. Using it at least 300K is practical on the first 2 levels (its easier and you can score even higher on level 2 than level 1, thanks to the big planes). Of course it would take practice to do this clean and without losing too many ships.

John, I'm sure you realize the problem with you judging what is leeching (or even reaching a decision on this thread), is that regardless of what we decide here, if it gets ruled leeching on the regulation forum, then it isn't valid as a MARP submission. You could always adopt the criteria that all submissions not get zeroed by MARP, but that might make it hard to determine the winner in a timely fashion. I still think 5 lives/level reached would be fun.

-gastrainga
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Postby TRB_MetroidTeam » Mon Jun 06, 2005 11:41 pm

My last proposal... (maybe against a lot of the MARP current conceptions... scores, time involved): To GEGOTW, what do you think about Time Trial to this game? Maybe... default settings, fastest completition of the 1st "world" (ie: 1 loop... I forgot how many stages is it... 6? ).

Well, after the thoughs, why to run a game with bad settings to competitions, in a very short (1 week) competition??? (Including cash prizes)

I never played this game before Robert announces about DECA 2005... this is not my style of game, however I liked this game... but exist the problem I wrote above... I am seriously thinking in avoid to comment about the rules... will never be reached a perfect rule. Good luck for you try to reach the "the best current solution" to this problem.
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Postby destructor » Thu Jun 09, 2005 11:31 am

Weehawk wrote:Playing with limited lives and scoring by level reached would solve the problem

5 lives only and scoring by level reached. I think this is enough.
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