zlk wrote:I think you SEVERELY underestimate some of the skills of the Japanese players.
No, I am not underestimating that at all. I know over the past 15 years video games and arcades have still been big in Japan compared to the USA....so it only makes sense Japan would have many more highly skilled gamers and some gamers with truly insane skills.
Show me where I said they don't have skills? However, it doesn't give a very good impression when so many replay files they submit are using gameplay techniques that are not allowed at MARP.
It's not a good impression when tons of replay files submitted are new high scores yes, but most end up causing some controversy because of severe leeching or using some trick etc.
Gamers with skills have the skill to play the game at a high level regardless of the rules enforced for the game. Fine, perhaps with MARP rules they won't be able to score as high as they can under an anything goes scoreboard "rules". They can still set the high score for MARP though.
Here, the game allows me to set the dip switches to an easier setting and earn more extra men. I'll do that so I can get a higher score. It's "legal" cuz the game allows me to do this. C'mon. Using tricks or exploiting bugs in games to accomplish high scores is really no different. An "anything-goes" policy doesn't work.
Many of these Japanese gamers have some mindset they can do anything in a game to obtain the highest score possible. That's fine for other scoreboards. It's not fine for MARP or TG.
I also think you are being insulting to them
Not at all...it was only noting how I and many others at MARP view actions done by some Japanese players.
The fact rules that often yield more fair and/or better competition for the high score for games chases them away is what is suspicious.
If a ball player is hitting many home runs and it's discovered they were using a corked bat(a "trick"), would you think they were as skilled as their statistics show? If they are a truly great power hitter then they should be able to be the home run king with an approved bat also. When a gamer resorts to using tricks like this it damages the integrity of the game...and of that player.
When alphamame and wolfmame started being used, some Japanese players refused to use it and kept using regular mame. Why? I was only pointing out that brings suspicion to their regular mame score accomplishments. if they are playing at full speed without pausing etc. then what difficulty is there to play in wolfmame instead? It's pretty trivial for them to do so.
If I had a PC I would prefer to submit scores using wolfmame instead of regular mame.
In fact, I don't like the fact there is a wolfmameplus like port for MacOS...to the point I have tentative plans to start a project to port wolfmameplus to MacOS this summer. At this point it's quite tentative and will require a lot of time to develop...cuz it won't just be a straight port...but also using the performance enhancements the current macmame has...but also trying to make it where replay files for most games are cross-platform compatible. Changing the code to do this will be semi-trivial for some games, but not so trivial for other games. The start of this project is still several months away and at this point is totally tentative as I might not have time to really do it. I'm not sure yet.
The 2 guys that are WRX2 are both very skilled gamers. There is no question about that. They also have had no problem switching to wolfmame and continuing to submit many high scores.
Many of the gamest/arcadia records are on video tape for everyone to see. Unlike many people at TG who refuse to show their
for games that are over 15 years old, the top Japanese players frequently announce a record, then sell the video tape replay for anyone who wants to watch. I have seen such tapes and Japan has players that are so good it is simply amazing.
oh man, this is a HUGE misunderstanding here.
Perhaps in Japan there is a demand for buying video tapes of great gamer's gameplay so then there is a business opportunity there.
In the USA, the demand really isn't high enough to make any business of this kind possible.
MOST video tapes submitted to TG technically are publicly available. However, TG has NO resources to duplicate and sell video tapes. There are only a few tapes submitted to TG where the gamer has requested the tapes not be shown to anyone without their permission. If gamers want to duplicate and try and sell their video tape they are welcome to do so. Perhaps some will buy it. That's totally up to the gamers. Many likely have no problem sharing their tapes but aren't about to spend hours duplicating tapes to end up making what would be like $2/hour from it.
I think in a few cases tapes have been duplicated and sent to others to view or others bought a copy but TG has no resources to do this regularly so don't offer it.
It's all that kind of stuff versus gamers wanting their gameplay to remain a secret. Kelly does have a very valid point above which is why there are some gamers with scores that don't want to share their tactics.
ie. Billy Mitchell refusing to share his perfect pac-man tapes. I made a replay file and submitted it publicly to MARP which shows essentially everything a gamer would need to obtain a perfect pac-man score...except for a pattern to clear the split-screen since I don't have a pattern for that.
I largely did this to just figure it out for myself. It took me about 2 months. The fact I mastered it in only 2 months I didn't hesitate to share it with the world. I wish I had the time 20 years ago over a 2 month period to figure it out. I could have written a book on it and made some $$$.
I don't get why there is a demand for wanting great gamers to freely share all their tactics and gameplay anyway. In most cases they likely will, but to demand it of them? That's hardly fair. If a score is confirmed/verified on a scoreboard, then I don't need to view their gameplay to compete and try and beat their score.
It seems on some scoreboards so many high scores are obtained using tricks or exploiting bugs in the game code that you do demand to watch the gameplay of someone else getting the score so you can see/learn these tricks yourself...cuz without the tricks regardless of your SKILL at the game you won't be able to beat their score. IMHO, that's not right.
Also, above you almost make it sound like the gamers provide their tapes themselves to make some money. Ok, that's great. I'd bet they make a little money from that then. In the USA, in most cases you won't make any money from selling tapes of your gameplay..especially versus the time required and equipment required to properly duplicate a tape. In most cases people would just laugh at you for even attempting to market video tapes of you just playing some video game.
I hope that these players will continue to make replays so we all can watch them. I think accusing them of cheating then saying "bring it" is not the best way to encourage them to submit replays to marp.
Show me where I accused them of cheating. I didn't say anything like that at all. DO NOT PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH I DIDN'T SAY!
I said the fact many use as an excuse that they don't like MARP rules/restrictions for games and use wolfmame so they won't be a part of MARP anymore is suspicious. Also the fact a highly skilled gamer like Hisa/Novice often has submitted replay files that end up being rejected with him knowing beforehand it likely will be rejected is pointless and makes you wonder why a highly skilled gamer who can get the high scores playing by MARP rules stoops to levels of using cheap tricks to get higher scores in games.
In many cases he knew beforehand what he was doing in a game wouldn't be accepted...yet he did it and submitted it anyway. Should MARP ignore their own rule system just because it was submitted by some elite Asian player just because other scoreboards like Gamest have no rules for most games? cmon.
A gamer with skills for the game will achieve a great score for the game regardless of game settings and special rules set.
ie. someone truly skilled at Cameltry should be able to get the high score playing the game as intended. They shouldn't be using the trick of setting the sensitivity so high where you can warp the ball through walls to take shortcuts and get the ball lodged in a bumper corner to max the score at 9,999,990. There is less skill in that actually. The fact a highly skilled gamer results to that kind of tactic made me sigh. There is less skill required to get millions in the game exploiting a flaw in the game code versus not exploiting that bug and playing the game as intended. Scores playing this game as intended are far more skilled than replay files showing someone warping through walls to get millions higher in score.
Fine, that "other" scoreboard allows this. As a gamer it makes me sigh knowing a scoreboard actually accepts playing a game like this for a score. if you have a separate area that displays playing the games in this manner and has separate record tracking using the tricks, that's fine by me....so separate them. Have 1 record tracked not using the trick and another using the trick. I'm guessing in most cases the scores for the track not using the trick will be far more admired and show more skill at playing the game.
To point that kind of stuff out isn't accusing anyone of cheating. However, it is a waste of their gaming skill and makes you wonder why they stoop to these levels to get high scores? Play the game under the rules the game provides and was intended to be playing at. Yes, tons of games have bugs...some unavoidable in just playing the game so are allowed...others easily avoidable where you can still play the game under it's own rules. A hidden 'trick' that is actually intentionally in the game code is considered part of the actual game so also would be allowed in most cases.
Why some highly skilled gamers can't see that is beyond me? It's all about integrity of gaming. The fact many Japan players see no problem with simply bending or totally breaking the rules of how to play a game has me wonder if they understand at all the integrity of gaming. If they did then they wouldn't result to using "anything" to get a high score.
If they are really as skilled as many seem to be then they can BRING IT and play the game by the rules provided and still be able to set a really high score....yet some refuse to do so...oh well.
The 2 guys of WRX2 certainly have been bringing it! I hope they continue to do so. Both of them are skilled players.
If they used some extreme leeching trick or other trick not allowed at MARP, they are told...then guess what? They submit another replay file following the rules and STILL set a new high score. I give them props for that. They have shown they truly are skilled versus a gamer who after told this about the rules complains and runs away...then only returns once every few months to put others down in the forum and also puts them down and the other scoreboards down in their own separate forums.
Who are you going to have more respect for as a gamer?