Stupid Poll VI

General discussion on MAME, MARP, or whatever else that doesn't belong in any of the other forums

Moderators: mahlemiut, seymour, QRS

Who or what is the current scourge of the emulation world?

Brazil
1
4%
Zero-day warez
1
4%
Dumbass n00bs
0
No votes
"Ignorance Complainer"
14
61%
"The Man Who Knows It"
3
13%
Pac-man
1
4%
That goddamned cat from City Connection
3
13%
 
Total votes: 23

User avatar
Mr. Kelly R. Flewin
MARP Knight
MARP Knight
Posts: 317
Joined: Thu Jul 18, 2002 4:59 am
Location: Somewhere over the Rainbow

Re: Stupid Poll VI

Post by Mr. Kelly R. Flewin » Sat Feb 14, 2004 4:05 pm

zlk wrote:Many of the gamest/arcadia records are on video tape for everyone to see. Unlike many people at TG who refuse to show their 8O TOP 8O SECRET 8O SPECIAL 8O TACTICS 8O for games that are over 15 years old, the top Japanese players frequently announce a record, then sell the video tape replay for anyone who wants to watch. I have seen such tapes and Japan has players that are so good it is simply amazing.
I do not agree with what you mention of TG. though, I can understand from your example why your stance may be as such... but I sum it up as this.


Different view points.


There is NOT A SINGLE THING WRONG WITH THAT! I have INCREDIBLE respect for our Japanese friends as they show a dedication and determination that is absolutely mindblowing. It just happens to be that if they feel they have nothing to lose by allowing tapes of their progress to be shown, only more to gain, they do so.

Now I will admit... A LOT of us don't see it quite like that... and I can kinda understand to a degree... I mean you're suddenly the top dog.. you've managed to pull off a score on a game no one ever thought was even possible because you spent YEARS to do it.... and you don't suddenly want everyone and their kid brother to come along and match it or beat it a week after your recording is available... so you wish it to be held to secrecy... kinda... to build mystique... to encourage others to go for it and try and figure out.. "How the heck did he do that!"

In regards to TG, a lot of the time it's not for lack of wanting... it's out of respect for the players wishes as well. A lot of players don't want their masterpiece ruined, so they make such request. Also at this time, TG realizes to a degree that there are also legal issues that could come forth, even be they minor, with regard to allowing tapes or videos or stuff to be put online as well... a day may come when such will not be an issue.. but till then... and then it comes also back to if players ever would wish their records to be viewed by competition as well.... and then probably a myriad of other bigger and or smaller issues I am not even remotely aware of.

Now this is not an attempt to make up excuses for anyone, but merely as an explanation from what I am aware of....

But... the times... the times they are changing... because now... if you look around... recordings are beginning to become more and more of an eminent presence... look for instance of all these speed recordings popping up for classic games! [Granted a lot of them are using emulators like Famtasia to link together a flawless run... albeit at the sake of spending insane hours doing it, there are others, such as sdkess, who are doing so legitimately.]

With all due respect to Ben Jos for his amazing accomplishment before all this hype occured, the DK World record is actually being sold for people to see as well.

I am very proud to be a member of this community... through the good and the bad... this community is a step in the right direction in regards to the changing mentality that is slowly catching on. Our Japane friends are also to be highly thanked for pioneering this [My apologies if someone can provide an example of showing/providing recordings of these accomplishments at an earlier time in some other country... I will correct as required] To be able to watch and be awestruck by the sheer talent available from everyone... it's an incredible feeling.

But I am ALSO a very proud member of the TG Community as well. TG has been going on for over 20 years now and it continues to grow and expand. Even without being able to see the recordings, just knowing someone has sent something in and its verified... creates a certain spark.. "The heck! They pulled that off? Screw that! I'm gonna show them how it's REALLY done"... and also, as more players continue to put their records online on their own sites and such, also to are the wonderful accounts of these recordings and how the community comes together to offer their suggestions, tips and advice to others seeking to challenge...


One day... this discussion will be moot... as one day.. we will all be able to see everything and anything in regards to gaming accomplishments.. all it will take is time, patience, realization and determination to see it through. Videos in Japan... communities/entities such as Marp and TG.... all of us... together... in our own ways.. and spirit... we are the spring board to which will aid this to leap to the heavens and shine as the star it is. Till then... may we all keep fighting the good fight in the ways we can.

And thank you to EVERYONE who's ever put in a quarter, hit a start button or hit that record button... the revolution has begun!


Kelly
Just a gaming junkie looking for his next High Score fix.

zlk
MARPaltunnel Wrists
MARPaltunnel Wrists
Posts: 489
Joined: Sat Dec 07, 2002 11:41 pm

Post by zlk » Sat Feb 14, 2004 4:19 pm

Don't get me wrong Kelly, I like TG. I think Walter Day has done great things for the video gaming community, as have many of the people associated with TG. I just find it funny that some TG people want to keep their tactics top secret. I also wanted to point out to Ln2 that many of the gamest/arcadia records are available on video tape for everyone to see, scrutinize, and learn from.

User avatar
SprintGod
Button Masher
Button Masher
Posts: 32
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2004 2:09 am
Location: Over there
Contact:

Post by SprintGod » Sat Feb 14, 2004 7:26 pm

Novice wrote:marble madness
:P:P:P

I'm feeling particularly lazy tonight, so just pretend that this sentence is really several paragraphs of interesting and relevant information interspersed with opinions.
Gavin Ward

LN2
MARPaholic
MARPaholic
Posts: 1669
Joined: Wed Jul 24, 2002 4:46 pm
Contact:

Re: Stupid Poll VI

Post by LN2 » Sat Feb 14, 2004 9:03 pm

zlk wrote:I think you SEVERELY underestimate some of the skills of the Japanese players.
No, I am not underestimating that at all. I know over the past 15 years video games and arcades have still been big in Japan compared to the USA....so it only makes sense Japan would have many more highly skilled gamers and some gamers with truly insane skills.
Show me where I said they don't have skills? However, it doesn't give a very good impression when so many replay files they submit are using gameplay techniques that are not allowed at MARP.

It's not a good impression when tons of replay files submitted are new high scores yes, but most end up causing some controversy because of severe leeching or using some trick etc.

Gamers with skills have the skill to play the game at a high level regardless of the rules enforced for the game. Fine, perhaps with MARP rules they won't be able to score as high as they can under an anything goes scoreboard "rules". They can still set the high score for MARP though.

Here, the game allows me to set the dip switches to an easier setting and earn more extra men. I'll do that so I can get a higher score. It's "legal" cuz the game allows me to do this. C'mon. Using tricks or exploiting bugs in games to accomplish high scores is really no different. An "anything-goes" policy doesn't work.

Many of these Japanese gamers have some mindset they can do anything in a game to obtain the highest score possible. That's fine for other scoreboards. It's not fine for MARP or TG.
I also think you are being insulting to them
Not at all...it was only noting how I and many others at MARP view actions done by some Japanese players.

The fact rules that often yield more fair and/or better competition for the high score for games chases them away is what is suspicious.

If a ball player is hitting many home runs and it's discovered they were using a corked bat(a "trick"), would you think they were as skilled as their statistics show? If they are a truly great power hitter then they should be able to be the home run king with an approved bat also. When a gamer resorts to using tricks like this it damages the integrity of the game...and of that player.

When alphamame and wolfmame started being used, some Japanese players refused to use it and kept using regular mame. Why? I was only pointing out that brings suspicion to their regular mame score accomplishments. if they are playing at full speed without pausing etc. then what difficulty is there to play in wolfmame instead? It's pretty trivial for them to do so.

If I had a PC I would prefer to submit scores using wolfmame instead of regular mame.

In fact, I don't like the fact there is a wolfmameplus like port for MacOS...to the point I have tentative plans to start a project to port wolfmameplus to MacOS this summer. At this point it's quite tentative and will require a lot of time to develop...cuz it won't just be a straight port...but also using the performance enhancements the current macmame has...but also trying to make it where replay files for most games are cross-platform compatible. Changing the code to do this will be semi-trivial for some games, but not so trivial for other games. The start of this project is still several months away and at this point is totally tentative as I might not have time to really do it. I'm not sure yet.

The 2 guys that are WRX2 are both very skilled gamers. There is no question about that. They also have had no problem switching to wolfmame and continuing to submit many high scores.
Many of the gamest/arcadia records are on video tape for everyone to see. Unlike many people at TG who refuse to show their 8O TOP 8O SECRET 8O SPECIAL 8O TACTICS 8O for games that are over 15 years old, the top Japanese players frequently announce a record, then sell the video tape replay for anyone who wants to watch. I have seen such tapes and Japan has players that are so good it is simply amazing.
oh man, this is a HUGE misunderstanding here.

Perhaps in Japan there is a demand for buying video tapes of great gamer's gameplay so then there is a business opportunity there.

In the USA, the demand really isn't high enough to make any business of this kind possible.

MOST video tapes submitted to TG technically are publicly available. However, TG has NO resources to duplicate and sell video tapes. There are only a few tapes submitted to TG where the gamer has requested the tapes not be shown to anyone without their permission. If gamers want to duplicate and try and sell their video tape they are welcome to do so. Perhaps some will buy it. That's totally up to the gamers. Many likely have no problem sharing their tapes but aren't about to spend hours duplicating tapes to end up making what would be like $2/hour from it.

I think in a few cases tapes have been duplicated and sent to others to view or others bought a copy but TG has no resources to do this regularly so don't offer it.

It's all that kind of stuff versus gamers wanting their gameplay to remain a secret. Kelly does have a very valid point above which is why there are some gamers with scores that don't want to share their tactics.

ie. Billy Mitchell refusing to share his perfect pac-man tapes. I made a replay file and submitted it publicly to MARP which shows essentially everything a gamer would need to obtain a perfect pac-man score...except for a pattern to clear the split-screen since I don't have a pattern for that.

I largely did this to just figure it out for myself. It took me about 2 months. The fact I mastered it in only 2 months I didn't hesitate to share it with the world. I wish I had the time 20 years ago over a 2 month period to figure it out. I could have written a book on it and made some $$$. :P

I don't get why there is a demand for wanting great gamers to freely share all their tactics and gameplay anyway. In most cases they likely will, but to demand it of them? That's hardly fair. If a score is confirmed/verified on a scoreboard, then I don't need to view their gameplay to compete and try and beat their score.

It seems on some scoreboards so many high scores are obtained using tricks or exploiting bugs in the game code that you do demand to watch the gameplay of someone else getting the score so you can see/learn these tricks yourself...cuz without the tricks regardless of your SKILL at the game you won't be able to beat their score. IMHO, that's not right.

Also, above you almost make it sound like the gamers provide their tapes themselves to make some money. Ok, that's great. I'd bet they make a little money from that then. In the USA, in most cases you won't make any money from selling tapes of your gameplay..especially versus the time required and equipment required to properly duplicate a tape. In most cases people would just laugh at you for even attempting to market video tapes of you just playing some video game.
I hope that these players will continue to make replays so we all can watch them. I think accusing them of cheating then saying "bring it" is not the best way to encourage them to submit replays to marp.
Show me where I accused them of cheating. I didn't say anything like that at all. DO NOT PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH I DIDN'T SAY!

I said the fact many use as an excuse that they don't like MARP rules/restrictions for games and use wolfmame so they won't be a part of MARP anymore is suspicious. Also the fact a highly skilled gamer like Hisa/Novice often has submitted replay files that end up being rejected with him knowing beforehand it likely will be rejected is pointless and makes you wonder why a highly skilled gamer who can get the high scores playing by MARP rules stoops to levels of using cheap tricks to get higher scores in games.

In many cases he knew beforehand what he was doing in a game wouldn't be accepted...yet he did it and submitted it anyway. Should MARP ignore their own rule system just because it was submitted by some elite Asian player just because other scoreboards like Gamest have no rules for most games? cmon.

A gamer with skills for the game will achieve a great score for the game regardless of game settings and special rules set.

ie. someone truly skilled at Cameltry should be able to get the high score playing the game as intended. They shouldn't be using the trick of setting the sensitivity so high where you can warp the ball through walls to take shortcuts and get the ball lodged in a bumper corner to max the score at 9,999,990. There is less skill in that actually. The fact a highly skilled gamer results to that kind of tactic made me sigh. There is less skill required to get millions in the game exploiting a flaw in the game code versus not exploiting that bug and playing the game as intended. Scores playing this game as intended are far more skilled than replay files showing someone warping through walls to get millions higher in score.

Fine, that "other" scoreboard allows this. As a gamer it makes me sigh knowing a scoreboard actually accepts playing a game like this for a score. if you have a separate area that displays playing the games in this manner and has separate record tracking using the tricks, that's fine by me....so separate them. Have 1 record tracked not using the trick and another using the trick. I'm guessing in most cases the scores for the track not using the trick will be far more admired and show more skill at playing the game.

To point that kind of stuff out isn't accusing anyone of cheating. However, it is a waste of their gaming skill and makes you wonder why they stoop to these levels to get high scores? Play the game under the rules the game provides and was intended to be playing at. Yes, tons of games have bugs...some unavoidable in just playing the game so are allowed...others easily avoidable where you can still play the game under it's own rules. A hidden 'trick' that is actually intentionally in the game code is considered part of the actual game so also would be allowed in most cases.

Why some highly skilled gamers can't see that is beyond me? It's all about integrity of gaming. The fact many Japan players see no problem with simply bending or totally breaking the rules of how to play a game has me wonder if they understand at all the integrity of gaming. If they did then they wouldn't result to using "anything" to get a high score.

If they are really as skilled as many seem to be then they can BRING IT and play the game by the rules provided and still be able to set a really high score....yet some refuse to do so...oh well.

The 2 guys of WRX2 certainly have been bringing it! I hope they continue to do so. Both of them are skilled players.

If they used some extreme leeching trick or other trick not allowed at MARP, they are told...then guess what? They submit another replay file following the rules and STILL set a new high score. I give them props for that. They have shown they truly are skilled versus a gamer who after told this about the rules complains and runs away...then only returns once every few months to put others down in the forum and also puts them down and the other scoreboards down in their own separate forums.

Who are you going to have more respect for as a gamer?

User avatar
mahlemiut
Editor
Posts: 4122
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2002 10:05 pm
Location: New Zealand
Contact:

Post by mahlemiut » Sat Feb 14, 2004 9:27 pm

Here, the game allows me to set the dip switches to an easier setting and earn more extra men. I'll do that so I can get a higher score. It's "legal" cuz the game allows me to do this. C'mon. Using tricks or exploiting bugs in games to accomplish high scores is really no different. An "anything-goes" policy doesn't work.
Gamest and Arcadia records are on FACTORY SETTINGS.
- Barry Rodewald
MARP Assistant Web Maintainer
Image

Buttermaker
MARP Seer
MARP Seer
Posts: 788
Joined: Sun May 19, 2002 9:06 am

Re: Stupid Poll VI

Post by Buttermaker » Sat Feb 14, 2004 9:35 pm

LN2 wrote:Who are you going to have more respect for as a gamer?
I respect the gamers whose replays I can watch.

Novice
The greatest info supplyer
Posts: 490
Joined: Sun Mar 24, 2002 8:28 am
Location: earth
Contact:

Post by Novice » Sat Feb 14, 2004 9:38 pm

mahlemiut wrote:
Here, the game allows me to set the dip switches to an easier setting and earn more extra men. I'll do that so I can get a higher score. It's "legal" cuz the game allows me to do this. C'mon. Using tricks or exploiting bugs in games to accomplish high scores is really no different. An "anything-goes" policy doesn't work.
Gamest and Arcadia records are on FACTORY SETTINGS.
HEY ALL.
talk to IGNORANT LOSER is time waste.
he does not have enough intelligence to understand about the high-skill players.

I do not want to talk to such NO-skill NO-effort NO-worth man any more.
why not ignore such an asshole?
the result of this poll accounts for evertything.

stupid is stupid. never changes
DEFence CONdition
WAR 1<< >>7 PEACE

zlk
MARPaltunnel Wrists
MARPaltunnel Wrists
Posts: 489
Joined: Sat Dec 07, 2002 11:41 pm

Post by zlk » Sat Feb 14, 2004 9:44 pm

ln2 wrote: Do they realize how suspicious that looks? If they are truly as skilled as their big heads think they are, then using wolfmame to set incredible scores shouldn't be a problem for them at all....so BRING IT!
You are implying that for some reason they can't get the same scores using wolfmame with that statement. That is to say you are implying they are cheating. If this is not clear to you, I do not know what to say.
Last edited by zlk on Sat Feb 14, 2004 10:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Weehawk
MARPaholic
MARPaholic
Posts: 2474
Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2003 7:43 am
Location: Devil's Canyon
Contact:

Re: Stupid Poll VI

Post by Weehawk » Sat Feb 14, 2004 10:00 pm

Buttermaker wrote:I respect the gamers whose replays I can watch.
=D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D>
=D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D>
=D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D>
=D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D>
John Cunningham (JTC)
Image

User avatar
Weehawk
MARPaholic
MARPaholic
Posts: 2474
Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2003 7:43 am
Location: Devil's Canyon
Contact:

Post by Weehawk » Sat Feb 14, 2004 10:08 pm

Novice wrote:why not ignore such an asshole?
Yes, why don't you?
John Cunningham (JTC)
Image

User avatar
mahlemiut
Editor
Posts: 4122
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2002 10:05 pm
Location: New Zealand
Contact:

Post by mahlemiut » Sat Feb 14, 2004 10:25 pm

Rick, my suggestion to you is to stop taking the results of this poll so seriously. It's meant to be a bit of fun, but now it's that far off-topic, that I am really close to locking it. Just calm down and develop a sense of humour.
- Barry Rodewald
MARP Assistant Web Maintainer
Image

User avatar
BBH
Editor
Posts: 1564
Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2002 7:06 am
Location: Portland, Oregon
Contact:

Post by BBH » Sun Feb 15, 2004 12:13 am

ya know what?

I STILL HATE THAT GODDAMN CAT FROM CITY CONNECTION MORE THAN ANYTHING ELSE

SHIT!!!


\:D/ \:D/ \:D/ \:D/ \:D/ \:D/ \:D/

LN2
MARPaholic
MARPaholic
Posts: 1669
Joined: Wed Jul 24, 2002 4:46 pm
Contact:

Post by LN2 » Sun Feb 15, 2004 1:49 am

mahlemiut wrote:Rick, my suggestion to you is to stop taking the results of this poll so seriously. It's meant to be a bit of fun, but now it's that far off-topic, that I am really close to locking it. Just calm down and develop a sense of humour.
I'm not taking this poll seriously at all. I know you did it as a joke and likely from chatting in #marp got lots of others there to go ahead and vote for me.

That's fine. My first post saying I wasn't going to reply until I saw I had 10 votes etc. was playing along with it.

I then made a small statement to try and get some to vote for Novice.

Then 'lo and behold, Novice, who hasn't posted here in a few months, posts and once again starts his disrespectful manner toward me...although versus in the past he was actually "nice".

For the others...no, I think they could set high scores using wolfmame just as easily...so why don't they BRING IT? That's what I mean by bring it. Perhaps that phrase isn't understood in other countries the same was as in the USA. If they don't bring it that's fine...but then they shouldn't keep shooting off at the mouth saying how superior scores are at the other scoreboard and how they can easily beat any of the MARP scores. You can't directly compare scores on games when they are played by different sets of rules.

Ok, so why don't more of us perhaps participate in the other scoreboards? Well, the language barrier is the main reason there. Given the sites are in Japanese, it's pretty much shutting out most of the rest of the world. They want their scoreboard mainly to be for Japan only.

Just because the other scoreboard has lots of higher scores doesn't automatically mean those are all games displaying a higher level of skill. The differences can totally just be from different game settings or special rules for the game one scoreboard has that another scoreboard doesn't have.

It results in a different competition where you can't just blindly compare scores from 1 scoreboard with another.

Oh, let's not play and set a score to submit to TG cuz they have harder game settings versus this other scoreboard so we won't be able to set a higher score using TG settings. Oh, I can't watch the skills of that gamer he developed over playing the game over 15 years so I can match what he did in only a few weeks....so screw them. That's the attitude some gamers seem to have. It doesn't mean TG is an inferior scoreboard. it doesn't mean TG and MARP generally have inferior players. Yes, perhaps MARP and TG have some more average type players that routinely submit scores versus other scoreboards have. So what?

This even follows within TG where many tracked scores for "arcade" games can reach scores beyond what playing the same game in MAME simply because of differences in the game settings and rules for playing the game. You can't directly compare high scores in the TG-MAME scoreboard for many games with the arcade scores in the TG scoreboard. There are still many you can compare though....although even then most of us still can't compare because we can't even read that other scoreboard.

I am sure even with Gamest there are many games the settings and rules are the same as MARP and TG so you could compare some scores. That's fine in those cases.

Gamest and perhaps other scoreboards allow any trick the game code allows to be used to get high scores in games. However, there are some cases where they don't. I would bet they don't allow the 255 extra men trick in Mr Do....or the 1 crash and 999,990 score for Alpine Ski. There is little point to playing the game using those tricks. This is also true for many other games where for whatever reasons they still allow the tricks. Personally, I want no part of playing games in that manner. Doing most of those types of tricks requires less skill than playing all other aspects of the game.

In regards to arcade scores, the Japan rom sets for most arcade games are set to easier settings by default and/or have different game design that allow for higher scores. This means the highly skilled players with scores on the TG scoreboard using the USA rom set of the game could get even higher scores by playing the Japanese rom set.

Instead of thinking about that, the Japanese gamers just claim they are all better than everyone else simply because their scores are higher. It's an unfair comparison and unfair conclusion based on that.

It's amazing how Novice can repeatedly call me unskilled and unknowledgable player without even viewing any of my replay files. Yes Novice, there are quite a few of my replay files you can view. Some are cross-platform compatible. My scores submitted to MARP aren't filled with tons of scores just to pad my leaderboard points. Yes, there are others here that do that. I have scores for about 100 other games I have played in macmame that I have never submitted to MARP that if I had submitted all of them would give me about another 4000-5000 in leaderboard points. I have not submitted those because I don't consider them worthy of submitting....or where I know if I play the game more I can pretty easily beat my personal best. A handful of those would even be good for first places at MARP...yet I still haven't submitted them because they aren't my best effort.

Yes, there are lots of great players in Japan. There are lots of great players in the USA and Europe etc. also. Yes, there are likely lots of Japanese arcade games the Japanese players are the best at by far simply because until we have seen them recently added to MAME, we have never seen these games.

User avatar
mahlemiut
Editor
Posts: 4122
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2002 10:05 pm
Location: New Zealand
Contact:

Post by mahlemiut » Sun Feb 15, 2004 2:28 am

LN2 wrote:I know you did it as a joke and likely from chatting in #marp got lots of others there to go ahead and vote for me.
Trust me, I didn't get anyone to vote for any specific option.
- Barry Rodewald
MARP Assistant Web Maintainer
Image

Novice
The greatest info supplyer
Posts: 490
Joined: Sun Mar 24, 2002 8:28 am
Location: earth
Contact:

Post by Novice » Sun Feb 15, 2004 5:43 am

DRN wrote:
tar wrote:what is our current status captain ?
You're funny man... :lol:
Current defence condition seemed.......

BBH seemed 3.(LOVE THE CAT!)
Barry seemed 5.
other men seemed 4.
and MACMAMECHEATER=1(always)

stupid screams again.
we should teach the fact for that asshole.
no one read his worthless opinion any more.
do it by yourself first.
I know it is impossible.
losers complain creates nothing. :wink:
DEFence CONdition
WAR 1<< >>7 PEACE

Post Reply