T15 - Submissions (for forum), scoreboard, etc.

Discussion about MARP's Tournaments

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Re: T15 - Submissions (for forum), scoreboard, etc.

Postby BeeJay » Thu Sep 22, 2016 4:58 pm

Possibly because of the increased loading it puts on the system. As with most other systems, both virtual and real world, there will be a point at which the stress of increased loading eventually reaches a breaking or tipping point where that system can no longer cope with the load to which it is being subjected.

To be fair, given how long ago Marp was written, and the technologies and knowledge which were available at that time, it actually does a pretty good job of continuing to run with minimal issues most of the time. This is actually pretty good given the small amount of maintenance that has actually been put into the system over the years. Think how well your car wouldn't be running if you stopped doing oil changes, and other such servicing, at regular intervals. Virtual systems also frequently need regular maintenance to keep them running in peak performance, especially as new technologies evolve over time etc.

Cheers,
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Re: T15 - Submissions (for forum), scoreboard, etc.

Postby giro-X » Thu Sep 22, 2016 9:24 pm

Sorry if I have not updated the rankings for today. I need some sleep, then, I'll do at some time when waking up.

MARP still needs maintenance, so, I'll extend of one day both multipliers and tournament duration.
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Re: T15 - Submissions (for forum), scoreboard, etc.

Postby Dax » Thu Sep 22, 2016 10:25 pm

Phoenix 234402
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Re: T15 - Submissions (for forum), scoreboard, etc.

Postby giro-X » Fri Sep 23, 2016 12:44 pm

Message to player: Cicca, all of your recordings have the date of last modify at 9th or 10th "January" 2016. Same goes for the date of creation given as log by Mame, in the DOS window when I use the command line.
Date of creation according to Windows, instead, is said to be 18th September for 2 files and 20th September for one. (which still, it's more than 24 hours from midnight of 22nd)

I don't know much what is causing this inconvenient, we're obviously sure you did not record them really on January... but you may understand I can't accept them in those conditions :(
First of all try to find out which may be the cause of those unmatched dates. Try recording a quick sample, zipping, extracting and playbacking it on your own computer...
are the file properties maintained as the original when zipping? (for example)
I don't know much what could case this mistake. If anyone has suggestions...
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Re: T15 - Submissions (for forum), scoreboard, etc.

Postby sawys » Sun Sep 25, 2016 12:37 pm

Hi.

I was wondering if the technic used by PG3 in kuniokunb was legal according to the marp spirit.

I explain. When you playback his inp, you can see that he uses a "bug" on the game which allow him to earn a good amount of points before beating the boss. I'm not sure that programmers had this aspect when they concepted the game.

I understand that it is a very good and hard technic, but i prefer ask now that we are at the beginning of the tourney because if only some of us can learn this technic, it will kill the scores of the "normal" players and it's like a new approach to play.

Thank you for your advice.
Sawys is Sébastien GIRAUD, admin of MAMESCORE, member of MARP, TWIN GALAXIES, RETRO UPRISING and ex-member of JVRM :-D
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Re: T15 - Submissions (for forum), scoreboard, etc.

Postby giro-X » Sun Sep 25, 2016 6:55 pm

Small reminder: in 2 hours, the multiplier for new scores will decrease to 16%.
Now checking and adding all the scores of this weekend.

sawys wrote:Hi.

I was wondering if the technic used by PG3 in kuniokunb was legal according to the marp spirit.

I explain. When you playback his inp, you can see that he uses a "bug" on the game which allow him to earn a good amount of points before beating the boss. I'm not sure that programmers had this aspect when they concepted the game.

I understand that it is a very good and hard technic, but i prefer ask now that we are at the beginning of the tourney because if only some of us can learn this technic, it will kill the scores of the "normal" players and it's like a new approach to play.

Thank you for your advice.


I don't know how much it may be in the MARP spirit, what I can say is that it is not a new fact, I believe it has been used in MARP at least for 15 years (I make a guess on JSW's score on Renegade, 339K on third loop), so people had eventually lot of time to discuss whether it is an allowed leeching or not; the player must end within the timer, and speed on killing all of the enemies before will make a difference on the application of the leeching.

I believe we can allow it. After all, there is more than a month of tournament ahead.

Also the 204K points trick on Phoenix kills the competition, in a different way though: there, it is hard to get advantage on others less skilled than you, except if you last for a truly long period of time.
I guess there will be always odds like these to take care of, with such tournament score system (a valuable lesson for any future organizer! :roll: :mrgreen: )
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Re: T15 - Submissions (for forum), scoreboard, etc.

Postby Dax » Sun Sep 25, 2016 11:58 pm

I believe we can allow it. After all, there is more than a month of tournament ahead.


I feel that this may deserve more scrutiny unless it can be duplicated by another player. I have watched his recording and its clear what he doing but I have yet to reproduce the mechanic. It may be more than just against the spirit of this tournament. However the technique/cheat doesnt leech that many points due to the time limit and I feel confident his score could be beat without using that technique/cheat by only needing maybe a few more screens advancement in the game. My input as an active participant in this competition.

Also the 204K points trick on Phoenix kills the competition, in a different way though: there, it is hard to get advantage on others less skilled than you, except if you last for a truly long period of time.


Im also in favor of disallowing this technique as well as it essentially makes this game a non factor now.
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Re: T15 - Submissions (for forum), scoreboard, etc.

Postby PG3 » Mon Sep 26, 2016 6:47 am

54
Last edited by PG3 on Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: T15 - Submissions (for forum), scoreboard, etc.

Postby giro-X » Mon Sep 26, 2016 11:25 am

This below could be read on Renegade's american cabinet. I do not understand yet (because I haven't played on my own) if it tells you how to do that move, but give it a try.
Also, I would like to remind that replays can be analized a little bit more, by viewing the inputs.
Code: Select all
-iv 1
(where IV stands for INPVIEW) written in the command line, will display you the buttons pressed for 1P player, by holding they DEL key on keyboard.
For slower playbacking, you can set up emulation speed (through settings that the GUI allows you before launching game, or with command line: if you want 50% speed, add -speed 0.5). For checking frame by frame what is happening, pause the replay and repeatedly press Shift+P for each frame.

For Phoenix instead, it may be not a factor to consider if you want to gain lots of TP, but still, everything counts, and if you manage to survive enough screen, it may become useful.
Also, since we have like one week of time to dedicate to each game (on average), you could say that the best thing to do at first was to give it all on Phoenix on first week, and who will come after will lose a few TP points compared to others.
Still, it will be a factor if someone manages to clear plenty of screens.
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Re: T15 - Submissions (for forum), scoreboard, etc.

Postby Cicca » Mon Sep 26, 2016 11:37 am

giro-X wrote:Message to player: Cicca, all of your recordings have the date of last modify at 9th or 10th "January" 2016. Same goes for the date of creation given as log by Mame, in the DOS window when I use the command line.
Date of creation according to Windows, instead, is said to be 18th September for 2 files and 20th September for one. (which still, it's more than 24 hours from midnight of 22nd)

I don't know much what is causing this inconvenient, we're obviously sure you did not record them really on January... but you may understand I can't accept them in those conditions :(
First of all try to find out which may be the cause of those unmatched dates. Try recording a quick sample, zipping, extracting and playbacking it on your own computer...
are the file properties maintained as the original when zipping? (for example)
I don't know much what could case this mistake. If anyone has suggestions...

I have an issue in the PC I use to play MAME games with a joystick....being off too long, despit the battery is pretty new, it loses date/time info, and those are to be reinput at boot-up...I should have set an incorrect date (dunno why two different dates with a two days gap, , since I've played in an unique session, although over midnight)....
Never mind...I'll play them again....
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Re: T15 - Submissions (for forum), scoreboard, etc.

Postby giro-X » Mon Sep 26, 2016 11:41 am

Cicca wrote:I have an issue in the PC I use to play MAME games with a joystick....being off too long, despit the battery is pretty new, it loses date/time info, and those are to be reinput at boot-up...I should have set an incorrect date (dunno why two different dates with a two days gap, , since I've played in an unique session, although over midnight)....
Never mind...I'll play them again....

Allright, at least we know the issue.
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Re: T15 - Submissions (for forum), scoreboard, etc.

Postby Dax » Mon Sep 26, 2016 6:41 pm

sawys wrote:Hi.

I was wondering if the technic used by PG3 in kuniokunb was legal according to the marp spirit.

I explain. When you playback his inp, you can see that he uses a "bug" on the game which allow him to earn a good amount of points


Ive successfully duplicated the mechanic and in the spirit of fair play Im going to outline how it's performed.

After clearing the screen of all trash you want the boss one vs one. Within close proximity to the boss and just slightly above or below his plane double tap towards him to charge and knock him down. Instantly full reverse so you dont overshoot the window. Now pin your opponent by tapping down and immediately get off of him by tapping up. This is accomplished with a quick down then up motion. Then after a very brief delay, push down to pin him again and start swinging punches. If your timing is right he'll start to get up just as you pin him for the second time and glitch out as you start punching.

My goal here is to level the playing field on this game if this leech is allowed. Again I stress that due to the time constraint on each screen only so many points can be leeched and you very often burn time trying to pull it off. Almost as many points can be gained by playing legit and simply maximizing points on all the trash with lots of skillful combos. I much prefer this approach. Goodluck!
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Re: T15 - Submissions (for forum), scoreboard, etc.

Postby Dax » Tue Sep 27, 2016 3:57 pm

giro-x wrote

Additionally, to encourage players with knowledge of games to play fair and show off soon all their strategies, a bonus can be earned depending on when you submit your score.


After seeing the latest tally of scores I feel this system of bonuses may in fact discourage early submissions. By submitting new highs on lrescue and shangon I actually lost points. Im currently first on hangon this system has actually rewarded me with less points than Sawys who is in second. This will certainly discourage me from submitting scores on either of those games for the rest of the tourney unless they are beaten. And when they are beaten and I submit a better score it will be subjected to less bonus or no bonus at all. In fact I think it's safe to say that anyone who submitted early will almost certainly submit a better score in the final two weeks and therefore will lose that bonus on every game he improves in the last week.

In practice the only players who will benefit from the bonus are the ones who submit the first , maybe the second week, and then never submit another score again. To me this discourages an active tournament by giving incentive to sit on your week one or two score as long as possible. All of us who actively submit during the final two weeks, the bonus is meaningless to us as the most we can hope to get is is 100 pts.

While I definately like the idea of rewarding players for early submissions, you have to find a way to lock in those bonuses or players will be hesitant to actively resubmit better scores and penalizes them for uploading improved scores within the 24hour record time. This time should be increased if if players are discouraged from actively submitting.

I think the percentage based on the first place score is an excellent way to do this tournament, Im just not to sure the bonus system is equitable for those of us who like to actively play and submit.
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Re: T15 - Submissions (for forum), scoreboard, etc.

Postby giro-X » Tue Sep 27, 2016 8:57 pm

Dax wrote:After seeing the latest tally of scores I feel this system of bonuses may in fact discourage early submissions. By submitting new highs on lrescue and shangon I actually lost points. Im currently first on hangon this system has actually rewarded me with less points than Sawys who is in second. This will certainly discourage me from submitting scores on either of those games for the rest of the tourney unless they are beaten. And when they are beaten and I submit a better score it will be subjected to less bonus or no bonus at all. In fact I think it's safe to say that anyone who submitted early will almost certainly submit a better score in the final two weeks and therefore will lose that bonus on every game he improves in the last week.

In practice the only players who will benefit from the bonus are the ones who submit the first , maybe the second week, and then never submit another score again. To me this discourages an active tournament by giving incentive to sit on your week one or two score as long as possible. All of us who actively submit during the final two weeks, the bonus is meaningless to us as the most we can hope to get is is 100 pts.

While I definately like the idea of rewarding players for early submissions, you have to find a way to lock in those bonuses or players will be hesitant to actively resubmit better scores and penalizes them for uploading improved scores within the 24hour record time. This time should be increased if if players are discouraged from actively submitting.

I think the percentage based on the first place score is an excellent way to do this tournament, Im just not to sure the bonus system is equitable for those of us who like to actively play and submit.


Constructive criticism I accept.
I must admit this was a sort of experiment. I desired to find a way to motivate players to give their best since the very beginning, and not hide any hidden quality. I perhaps focused too much on the sportmanship factor instead of making a good score system.
Maybe the multipliers values are too high. Maybe it was still better to leave on the T13 score system.

On the other side, I believe the best strategy would be to focus on one or two games at a time, instead of trying to submit for all the 6 of them together at any time: you start with easier games, and leave for last those where you need more training.
It's intended as: part of the strategy is to understand where and when it is more convenient to gather your efforts for getting new scores.

A thing is sure, there is too much math involved :roll:

Small note: about shangon, you lost a very tiny advantage on Sawys, that's true; on lrescue instead, despite you lost 8 TP, you made him lose much more than 8 TP.
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Re: T15 - Submissions (for forum), scoreboard, etc.

Postby Cicca » Wed Sep 28, 2016 3:15 am

giro-X wrote:On the other side, I believe the best strategy would be to focus on one or two games at a time, instead of trying to submit for all the 6 of them together at any time: you start with easier games, and leave for last those where you need more training.

That's what I actually thought when the "6 games / 6 weeks" formula were voted.....I mean...I expected to see a game revealed each week....this together with the multiplier idea in calculating scores whould have had more sense....players have to concentrate in one game only as it goes out, although they may still submit scores in the following weeks...
Hope this one falls in the "Constructive criticism" category as well.... :wink:
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