T14 - PAC has been disqualified

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KIG666
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Re: T14 - PAC has been disqualified

Post by KIG666 » Tue Nov 24, 2015 1:58 pm

Great that's the spirit 8)
It's not that I would say you cheated but there must be a reason why the editors say you did right no :?:
Anyway if you can get 20M on the Galaga machine it will be more than enough for me and for most ppl here to say that you are not a cheater trust me :D

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Re: T14 - PAC has been disqualified

Post by GHEMANT » Tue Nov 24, 2015 2:04 pm

I wait all editors to see clear in this awkward situation.

However, my 2 words.

I suppose that Psichic 5, Hammering Harry and Secret Agent are real replay (not sure for Combact School). I can't check with 100% safety because I haven't the tools or correct software necessary, but these replay are played in 2012 and I think that the cheat used by Pac was discovered this year. However, because these mame replay are potential World Record please I ask editors to check them with the max accurancy possible.

About Aliens WR I checked personally and I saw with my eyes the problem. So I can say... I'm sad... because in this replay I see some new ideas and good strategy but..... is all a TAS :(

Unfortunately wolfmame is a program and not foolproof (I remember in past the problem caused by Shoesama aka Pengafin!). No emulator will be perfect and reliable because the computer world everything can be bypassed.

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Re: T14 - PAC has been disqualified

Post by colman paolo » Tue Nov 24, 2015 2:10 pm

Marco Marocco wrote:Not bad you show us also Pengo

And pandora's palace
Golden era rules!

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Re: T14 - PAC has been disqualified

Post by Zhorik » Tue Nov 24, 2015 3:21 pm

If PAC can stream live MAME play of Pengo or Twin Cobra that reaches close to his T14 scores in the next couple of days, I would reconsider my position on this. On Galaga I think PAC is a legitimately good player and while I don't believe he can get 20M with only 3 deaths, I think he can put up a good score of a couple million points. As this ruling was a disqualification from T14, to convince me he would need to live stream some comparable scores on some of the difficult T14 games which I don't think he can play at a high level at all.

The stream would need to be live on something like twitch.tv, would need to show that it is him playing the game and show that he is playing the game live and not replaying a previous recording. To prove he is playing live, he would need to interact with the chat live while he is playing so that if we tell him to make a particular movement on the screen between levels or tell him to die in a particular place, he would do that.

I'm willing to send him $500 USD if he can do this on Pengo or Twin Cobra in the next 2 days. He would need to break 1M on Pengo or 7M on Twin Cobra. If others are interested in offering additional money for this challenge let me know or post it here. PAC, if you are interested in this challenge, let me know and we can finalize rules.

-George

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Re: T14 - PAC has been disqualified

Post by BBH » Tue Nov 24, 2015 7:14 pm

PAC-MAN wrote:I dont know how can I cheat , I play with a keyboard in a Laptop, I cant cheat anyway!!!!!!! If you think that I cheat is only your opinion. I do not want to argue, I have a clear conscience and that's what matters to me.
So you're saying it's impossible to cheat when playing on a laptop's keyboard? Ummm, no.

Here's the deal - we know you cheated. YOU know you cheated. Obviously a cheater that's trying to pass off these inps as legitimate and untampered is not going to want to admit to it, but this is your chance to come clean on the matter.

I know you are a good player, but you found an outside exploit that you were able to use in creating the 20 million point Galaga score too. And you'd gotten away with it too, getting props from everyone but nobody had thought to take a closer look at the recording at the time. Seeing that you were able to get away with cheating on it, you decided to start doing this on other games too. And this was your big mistake, as you decided to start cheating on games in T14 that clearly you didn't have much knowledge of and were not already an expert player on. The New Rally-X and Twin Cobra scores had already raised a couple eyebrows, but it was the Pengo score that broke the camel's back. Pengo is not an easy game because of the unpredictability of the enemies, but somehow you remained in complete control at all times, and it made some people scratch their heads as to how you could have picked the game up so fast. It was this that led to a deeper analysis of what was going on in these inps, and we were able to deduce EXACTLY what was going on.

If you had been playing legit, why does your gameplay on these inps bring up so many questions? How was somebody able to play so perfectly in Pengo in a very reckless manner? As The_Pro said, how were you able to get so far in Twin Cobra while not really showing the knowledge of somebody that's put in the time to learn the most optimal way to handle certain bosses? And as Zerst said, why would you do such reckless things in Gradius 3 like maxing out the speed and flying between rocks instead of safer strategies? How could you be so consistently lucky on games you've clearly not put much time in, over and over? Why did you keep picking up the skull power-down icons in Gunsmoke until the very end of the game if you really were a player that was capable of reaching the end?

GHEMANT wrote:I suppose that Psichic 5, Hammering Harry and Secret Agent are real replay (not sure for Combact School). I can't check with 100% safety because I haven't the tools or correct software necessary, but these replay are played in 2012 and I think that the cheat used by Pac was discovered this year. However, because these mame replay are potential World Record please I ask editors to check them with the max accurancy possible.
They will warrant a closer look, but the Galaga inp seems to be the first in which he started doing this. If he cheated on those 2012 inps, it's not immediately detectable. Unfortunately it does now cast a shadow of doubt on all his old scores, but that's what happens when you decide to start blatantly cheating on things.

Zhorik wrote:If PAC can stream live MAME play of Pengo or Twin Cobra that reaches close to his T14 scores in the next couple of days, I would reconsider my position on this. On Galaga I think PAC is a legitimately good player and while I don't believe he can get 20M with only 3 deaths, I think he can put up a good score of a couple million points. As this ruling was a disqualification from T14, to convince me he would need to live stream some comparable scores on some of the difficult T14 games which I don't think he can play at a high level at all.

The stream would need to be live on something like twitch.tv, would need to show that it is him playing the game and show that he is playing the game live and not replaying a previous recording. To prove he is playing live, he would need to interact with the chat live while he is playing so that if we tell him to make a particular movement on the screen between levels or tell him to die in a particular place, he would do that.

I'm willing to send him $500 USD if he can do this on Pengo or Twin Cobra in the next 2 days. He would need to break 1M on Pengo or 7M on Twin Cobra. If others are interested in offering additional money for this challenge let me know or post it here. PAC, if you are interested in this challenge, let me know and we can finalize rules.

-George
This is a very generous offer.

I will say as someone that's just started streaming again recently, monitoring stream chat can be quite the distraction, especially on difficult games. I think the most reasonable way to prove a game is live without having to constantly look for instructions on special things to do during gameplay is to have someone (preferably yourself since you're putting up the money) tell him what initials to put in on the high scores at the end.

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Re: T14 - PAC has been disqualified

Post by Zhorik » Tue Nov 24, 2015 11:59 pm

BBH wrote:
Zhorik wrote:If PAC can stream live MAME play of Pengo or Twin Cobra that reaches close to his T14 scores in the next couple of days, I would reconsider my position on this. On Galaga I think PAC is a legitimately good player and while I don't believe he can get 20M with only 3 deaths, I think he can put up a good score of a couple million points. As this ruling was a disqualification from T14, to convince me he would need to live stream some comparable scores on some of the difficult T14 games which I don't think he can play at a high level at all.

The stream would need to be live on something like twitch.tv, would need to show that it is him playing the game and show that he is playing the game live and not replaying a previous recording. To prove he is playing live, he would need to interact with the chat live while he is playing so that if we tell him to make a particular movement on the screen between levels or tell him to die in a particular place, he would do that.

I'm willing to send him $500 USD if he can do this on Pengo or Twin Cobra in the next 2 days. He would need to break 1M on Pengo or 7M on Twin Cobra. If others are interested in offering additional money for this challenge let me know or post it here. PAC, if you are interested in this challenge, let me know and we can finalize rules.

-George
This is a very generous offer.

I will say as someone that's just started streaming again recently, monitoring stream chat can be quite the distraction, especially on difficult games. I think the most reasonable way to prove a game is live without having to constantly look for instructions on special things to do during gameplay is to have someone (preferably yourself since you're putting up the money) tell him what initials to put in on the high scores at the end.
If PAC accepts my challenge, I'm sure we can agree to some way of him proving he is playing live. I would be willing to let him use pauses to avoid distractions while he is interacting with the stream chat. My concern with just putting initials in at the end is he could have a recorded replay that he streams back and he has the replay input end just before the initial screen so he can enter any initials he wants.

I also want to make it clear that I'm making this offer to give additional evidence that PAC cheated to get his T14 scores on Pengo and Twin Cobra. I'm doing this to make it clear how sure we are that he cheated on those replays. This is not a sign that I have doubts, but rather that I don't have doubts. PAC doesn't have to pay me anything if he can't get the scores, while I'm offering $500 to him to get scores lower than he submitted in the last 10 days to MARP during T14 while he was also working on other games. If I was even only 80% sure I'm right, 20% of the time I'd still be losing $500. However I don't think there is any chance I'm wrong and I fully expect PAC not to accept my challenge.

-George

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Re: T14 - PAC has been disqualified

Post by Cicca » Wed Nov 25, 2015 4:31 am

Now that is getting clearer that cheating is possible in wolfmame too, althought it'd be not so easy, I guess.....will you coders (mahlemiut) work on a way to avoid this...?! Or you confirmers, at least give a closer look to new (and old) marathoned games, in order to catch those, and zero their score?

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Re: T14 - PAC has been disqualified

Post by QAOP Spaceman » Wed Nov 25, 2015 7:00 pm

We would certainly welcome submissions from PAC at RetroUprising.

The disputed scores on Pengo, Pandoras, Twin Cobra, New Rally-X, Galaga etc. could easily be attempted again.

Please PM me at RU, PAC, if you decide to sign up, and I'll make sure your submissions are prioritised in the score queue.

http://www.retrouprising.com/register.p ... il&agree=1

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Re: T14 - PAC has been disqualified

Post by franco.benedetti » Thu Nov 26, 2015 9:19 pm

I guess many of us are wondering if some other measures will be taken against pac

as of now pac can consider himself quite a lucky one: TG still has to decide how to cope with this, and it seems to me that they yet don't have any clue on what would happen if anyone knows how it is done
his galaga as well as his recent scores on marp are still there (though unconfirmed)
and it appears some other sites would happily host our hero so he can show his skill freely (by the way spaceman: are you sure that cheating is not possible on your site's web based emu?)

i'm afraid all of this will end up very badly

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Re: T14 - PAC has been disqualified

Post by Zhorik » Thu Nov 26, 2015 11:26 pm

Zhorik wrote: I'm willing to send him $500 USD if he can do this on Pengo or Twin Cobra in the next 2 days. He would need to break 1M on Pengo or 7M on Twin Cobra. If others are interested in offering additional money for this challenge let me know or post it here. PAC, if you are interested in this challenge, let me know and we can finalize rules.

I also want to make it clear that I'm making this offer to give additional evidence that PAC cheated to get his T14 scores on Pengo and Twin Cobra. I'm doing this to make it clear how sure we are that he cheated on those replays. This is not a sign that I have doubts, but rather that I don't have doubts. PAC doesn't have to pay me anything if he can't get the scores, while I'm offering $500 to him to get scores lower than he submitted in the last 10 days to MARP during T14 while he was also working on other games. If I was even only 80% sure I'm right, 20% of the time I'd still be losing $500. However I don't think there is any chance I'm wrong and I fully expect PAC not to accept my challenge.
As I expected, PAC did not accept or reply to my challenge. If anybody thinks my challenge was unfair, I would suggest you offer Zerst or The Pro $500 of your own money for them to live stream a score on a T14 game that is lower than what they got during T14 and see how that works out for you.

-George

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Re: T14 - PAC has been disqualified

Post by GJTMarper » Fri Nov 27, 2015 12:56 pm

PAC-MAN wrote:I dont know how can I cheat , I play with a keyboard in a Laptop, I cant cheat anyway!!!!!!! If you think that I cheat is only your opinion. I do not want to argue, I have a clear conscience and that's what matters to me.
That argument gets even more ridiculous considering saulonpb (a known autofire repeat offender) frequently uses the tagline "expert keyboard" or "master keyboard" in his submissions. It's not like those in charge here weren't familiar with cheaters using keyboards... :roll:

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Re: T14 - PAC has been disqualified

Post by Alessandro.S » Fri Nov 27, 2015 1:26 pm

There is actual previous history of improper behavior by PAC:

1943 autofire
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=14667

Hyper Athlete autofire
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=15172

Track and Field autofire (with a 96K score too - oh my)
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=14666


Here's my take: IF the MARP staff has grounds to declare that multiple recent recordings have all in common the exploitation of a WolfMAME shortcoming (which seems to be the case, but I'm still conditioning the rest of my post to this "IF"), THEN I'll have to ask for zeroing out all of PAC scores, every single one of them (124 hits, some already at 0), and accept new submissions only after a public apology and coming clean.

Perhaps MARP staff may decide to accept resubmissions of previously submitted INPs on behalf of PAC where he will attest there was no misconduct.

And obviously new submissions after the public apology would need to be watched with care before getting confirmed, at least for a while.

Harsh - yes. But while occasional mistakes or ONE temptation to cheat can be understood and eventually filed under "misguided competitiveness", repeated cheating should not be tolerated. Much less by players which are known as truly talented already.

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Re: T14 - PAC has been disqualified

Post by KIG666 » Fri Nov 27, 2015 4:38 pm

Alessandro.S wrote:Harsh - yes. But while occasional mistakes or ONE temptation to cheat can be understood and eventually filed under "misguided competitiveness", repeated cheating should not be tolerated. Much less by players which are known as truly talented already.
Cheating is super LAME so IF it's dead certain without any doubt that he really did it multiple times HELLO!! he would deserve a ban :evil:
I don't think the staff here would call someone a cheater without a damn good reason and the absence of PAC speaks also not for him at the moment......

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Re: T14 - PAC has been disqualified

Post by QRS » Fri Nov 27, 2015 6:03 pm

Now, this is really sad :(

And you are absolutley 100% sure that this is cheating? (Not doubting the experts on this Just asking as I still have BenJos and his "impossible" Dkong score in mind as some of you might remember...)
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